Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up. I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot. I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot. On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions. Keep it simple! Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
On my M23 there are definitely places in the San Juan Islands where I can barely make 0.2 kts head way against the current with a Honda 9.9 at full throttle (and other places where I would never even attempt to go against the current). Obviously there is a large difference between boats here, but a 2 hp motor on an M17 or even an M15 would probably have a similarly difficult time. Usually one can plan a course to coincide with the currents but occasionally you have the dilemma of choosing which location you will have to buck the current (or choose an alternate destination). My 2¢ only. Others with M17 or M15 experience in the Islands may have better information. Mark Dvorscak M23 M15 Former M17 On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
My understanding is that Hull Speed dictates maximum speed with respect to water, no matter engine size on a displacement hull (but if anyone gets an M boat up on a plane please post a video on YouTube, I want to see that!). It doesn't matter how big a motor you have on the back of your Montgomery, it isn't going to go faster (with respect to ground) than hull speed against a current. For the M15 that is about 4.87 knots ( http://www.msog.org/specs/race_ratings.cfm), if the current is 4.8 knots or better you aren't going that direction! Now, if the wind is blowing against you, that's a whole different question, but with any luck, the sails will be able to help :) Sam On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 12:07 PM Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
On my M23 there are definitely places in the San Juan Islands where I can barely make 0.2 kts head way against the current with a Honda 9.9 at full throttle (and other places where I would never even attempt to go against the current). Obviously there is a large difference between boats here, but a 2 hp motor on an M17 or even an M15 would probably have a similarly difficult time. Usually one can plan a course to coincide with the currents but occasionally you have the dilemma of choosing which location you will have to buck the current (or choose an alternate destination).
My 2¢ only. Others with M17 or M15 experience in the Islands may have better information.
Mark Dvorscak M23 M15 Former M17
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
Yes a Mark writes plan the passage according to the currents. My boat/home SWALLOW has a Honda 8 ... she is 25' on deck, full keeled and weights 8500#. I've not been limited by HP much as when seas kick up the motor cavitates. If waves are wind caused it is better to be sailing. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 12:07 PM Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
On my M23 there are definitely places in the San Juan Islands where I can barely make 0.2 kts head way against the current with a Honda 9.9 at full throttle (and other places where I would never even attempt to go against the current). Obviously there is a large difference between boats here, but a 2 hp motor on an M17 or even an M15 would probably have a similarly difficult time. Usually one can plan a course to coincide with the currents but occasionally you have the dilemma of choosing which location you will have to buck the current (or choose an alternate destination).
My 2¢ only. Others with M17 or M15 experience in the Islands may have better information.
Mark Dvorscak M23 M15 Former M17
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Speaking of motors, has anyone tried one of the new Epropulsion motors https://www.epropulsion.com/spirit-evo/ on an M boat? It looks about perfect for all but long distance cruising (and maybe even that with a few solar panels). Sam On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 12:20 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes a Mark writes plan the passage according to the currents.
My boat/home SWALLOW has a Honda 8 ... she is 25' on deck, full keeled and weights 8500#. I've not been limited by HP much as when seas kick up the motor cavitates. If waves are wind caused it is better to be sailing.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 12:07 PM Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
On my M23 there are definitely places in the San Juan Islands where I can barely make 0.2 kts head way against the current with a Honda 9.9 at full throttle (and other places where I would never even attempt to go against the current). Obviously there is a large difference between boats here, but a 2 hp motor on an M17 or even an M15 would probably have a similarly difficult time. Usually one can plan a course to coincide with the currents but occasionally you have the dilemma of choosing which location you will have to buck the current (or choose an alternate destination).
My 2¢ only. Others with M17 or M15 experience in the Islands may have better information.
Mark Dvorscak M23 M15 Former M17
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
They look cool and have nice marketing, but I think they are really trolling motors with integrated batteries made to look like outboards. The batteries capacity is related to size, so you just can't get a big long lasting battery in a small size regardlessof what they claim. Nice packaging though. If you don't need to go very far, then they would be pretty nice and you don't have to fiddle withwiring and all that. I like electric trolling motors. I put a lithium 12 volt in my M15 and have a trolling motor. Works for day trips great....but not if you need/want togo 20 miles. On Monday, April 5, 2021, 12:34:28 PM PDT, Sam <shunter@gmail.com> wrote: Speaking of motors, has anyone tried one of the new Epropulsion motors https://www.epropulsion.com/spirit-evo/ on an M boat? It looks about perfect for all but long distance cruising (and maybe even that with a few solar panels). Sam On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 12:20 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes a Mark writes plan the passage according to the currents.
My boat/home SWALLOW has a Honda 8 ... she is 25' on deck, full keeled and weights 8500#. I've not been limited by HP much as when seas kick up the motor cavitates. If waves are wind caused it is better to be sailing.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 12:07 PM Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
On my M23 there are definitely places in the San Juan Islands where I can barely make 0.2 kts head way against the current with a Honda 9.9 at full throttle (and other places where I would never even attempt to go against the current). Obviously there is a large difference between boats here, but a 2 hp motor on an M17 or even an M15 would probably have a similarly difficult time. Usually one can plan a course to coincide with the currents but occasionally you have the dilemma of choosing which location you will have to buck the current (or choose an alternate destination).
My 2¢ only. Others with M17 or M15 experience in the Islands may have better information.
Mark Dvorscak M23 M15 Former M17
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
I too have anguished about the tradeoff in power versus weight on the transom. With my present Monty 17 I have decided that a 3.5 tohatsu will suit my sailing needs. I do not plan on making it up to the San Juans as much as I would love to have a Monty up there. I am 74 and live in central Texas so lake sailing is my alternative. Once upon a time, I had a 21 foot sailboat with a 4hp outboard on it. I was attempting to motor into Port Everglades from the Atlantic Ocean on a falling tide. The outgoing current was over three knots, my diminutive ob could push me forward somewhat less than four knots. At this particular time of day rush hour traffic is heavy on the road which had a drawbridge over the entrance to Port Everglades. So there I was, full throttle, trying to enter the port against an outgoing tide. I was barely creeping forward under the raised drawbridge while making eye contact with the bridge operation attendant. He was NOT smiling as he peered down at me. He was holding up Friday afternoon rushhour traffic because of me and my tiny boat being pushed by a tiny motor. I thought I had cleared the bridge. It is HARD to tell where the top of your mast is and the bottom of bridges is from the cockpit. Suddenly the attendant started lowering the bridge! The onrushing steel sliced through the air about five feet aft of my mast. Just as suddenly I had the realization that if my suffering ob died at that moment I would be swept back under that bridge with all sorts of nasty consequences. I made it out of the funneled tide rush into calmer waters but learned that day that if there is any doubt about how much hp to get for your boat---there is NO doubt. Better to err on the side of caution (as in most everything in boating) that to suffer the daredevil's demise. On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 2:07 PM Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
On my M23 there are definitely places in the San Juan Islands where I can barely make 0.2 kts head way against the current with a Honda 9.9 at full throttle (and other places where I would never even attempt to go against the current). Obviously there is a large difference between boats here, but a 2 hp motor on an M17 or even an M15 would probably have a similarly difficult time. Usually one can plan a course to coincide with the currents but occasionally you have the dilemma of choosing which location you will have to buck the current (or choose an alternate destination).
My 2¢ only. Others with M17 or M15 experience in the Islands may have better information.
Mark Dvorscak M23 M15 Former M17
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
But Thomas, a 21ft displacement hull shouldn't have a maximum hull speed much over 6 knots ( https://www.easycalculation.com/physics/classical-physics/hull-speed-calcula...). If you had an outgoing tide at 3 knots and were motoring against it at 4 knots, that is a speed of 7 knots relative to the water. Even if your outboard were 100HP, you wouldn't have gone much faster. Look at the resistance vs speed plot on this page http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?167599-Hull-speed-and-hull-effici..., resistance goes nearly vertical after you reach hull speed. I'm not sure if there are any studies on frequency of motor failures as a function of motor size, but my guess is that maintenance is a better predictor. Either way, I think waiting until the current was lower is the only non-daredevil thing to do in that situation. Sam On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 12:29 PM Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
I too have anguished about the tradeoff in power versus weight on the transom. With my present Monty 17 I have decided that a 3.5 tohatsu will suit my sailing needs. I do not plan on making it up to the San Juans as much as I would love to have a Monty up there. I am 74 and live in central Texas so lake sailing is my alternative. Once upon a time, I had a 21 foot sailboat with a 4hp outboard on it. I was attempting to motor into Port Everglades from the Atlantic Ocean on a falling tide. The outgoing current was over three knots, my diminutive ob could push me forward somewhat less than four knots. At this particular time of day rush hour traffic is heavy on the road which had a drawbridge over the entrance to Port Everglades. So there I was, full throttle, trying to enter the port against an outgoing tide. I was barely creeping forward under the raised drawbridge while making eye contact with the bridge operation attendant. He was NOT smiling as he peered down at me. He was holding up Friday afternoon rushhour traffic because of me and my tiny boat being pushed by a tiny motor. I thought I had cleared the bridge. It is HARD to tell where the top of your mast is and the bottom of bridges is from the cockpit. Suddenly the attendant started lowering the bridge! The onrushing steel sliced through the air about five feet aft of my mast. Just as suddenly I had the realization that if my suffering ob died at that moment I would be swept back under that bridge with all sorts of nasty consequences. I made it out of the funneled tide rush into calmer waters but learned that day that if there is any doubt about how much hp to get for your boat---there is NO doubt. Better to err on the side of caution (as in most everything in boating) that to suffer the daredevil's demise.
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 2:07 PM Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
On my M23 there are definitely places in the San Juan Islands where I can barely make 0.2 kts head way against the current with a Honda 9.9 at full throttle (and other places where I would never even attempt to go against the current). Obviously there is a large difference between boats here, but a 2 hp motor on an M17 or even an M15 would probably have a similarly difficult time. Usually one can plan a course to coincide with the currents but occasionally you have the dilemma of choosing which location you will have to buck the current (or choose an alternate destination).
My 2¢ only. Others with M17 or M15 experience in the Islands may have better information.
Mark Dvorscak M23 M15 Former M17
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
This all occurred about 50 years ago. The numbers have faded but the fright remains. I can still see the stern face of that operator as he glared down at me with his hand on the control. On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 2:47 PM Sam <shunter@gmail.com> wrote:
But Thomas, a 21ft displacement hull shouldn't have a maximum hull speed much over 6 knots (
https://www.easycalculation.com/physics/classical-physics/hull-speed-calcula... ). If you had an outgoing tide at 3 knots and were motoring against it at 4 knots, that is a speed of 7 knots relative to the water. Even if your outboard were 100HP, you wouldn't have gone much faster. Look at the resistance vs speed plot on this page
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?167599-Hull-speed-and-hull-effici... , resistance goes nearly vertical after you reach hull speed.
I'm not sure if there are any studies on frequency of motor failures as a function of motor size, but my guess is that maintenance is a better predictor. Either way, I think waiting until the current was lower is the only non-daredevil thing to do in that situation.
Sam
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 12:29 PM Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
I too have anguished about the tradeoff in power versus weight on the transom. With my present Monty 17 I have decided that a 3.5 tohatsu will suit my sailing needs. I do not plan on making it up to the San Juans as much as I would love to have a Monty up there. I am 74 and live in central Texas so lake sailing is my alternative. Once upon a time, I had a 21 foot sailboat with a 4hp outboard on it. I was attempting to motor into Port Everglades from the Atlantic Ocean on a falling tide. The outgoing current was over three knots, my diminutive ob could push me forward somewhat less than four knots. At this particular time of day rush hour traffic is heavy on the road which had a drawbridge over the entrance to Port Everglades. So there I was, full throttle, trying to enter the port against an outgoing tide. I was barely creeping forward under the raised drawbridge while making eye contact with the bridge operation attendant. He was NOT smiling as he peered down at me. He was holding up Friday afternoon rushhour traffic because of me and my tiny boat being pushed by a tiny motor. I thought I had cleared the bridge. It is HARD to tell where the top of your mast is and the bottom of bridges is from the cockpit. Suddenly the attendant started lowering the bridge! The onrushing steel sliced through the air about five feet aft of my mast. Just as suddenly I had the realization that if my suffering ob died at that moment I would be swept back under that bridge with all sorts of nasty consequences. I made it out of the funneled tide rush into calmer waters but learned that day that if there is any doubt about how much hp to get for your boat---there is NO doubt. Better to err on the side of caution (as in most everything in boating) that to suffer the daredevil's demise.
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 2:07 PM Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
On my M23 there are definitely places in the San Juan Islands where I can barely make 0.2 kts head way against the current with a Honda 9.9 at full throttle (and other places where I would never even attempt to go against the current). Obviously there is a large difference between boats here, but a 2 hp motor on an M17 or even an M15 would probably have a similarly difficult time. Usually one can plan a course to coincide with the currents but occasionally you have the dilemma of choosing which location you will have to buck the current (or choose an alternate destination).
My 2¢ only. Others with M17 or M15 experience in the Islands may have better information.
Mark Dvorscak M23 M15 Former M17
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
Of course "hull speed" is not an "exact" science. It's not like you hit a brick wall as far as speed goes. It's just rapidly diminishing returns. The force goes as v^2, so the power (f*v) goes as v^3. but even though the power required to go 5mph vs 4mph might require double the horsepower, that extra 1mph might make the difference between standing still stuck in a bad place and at least making some (slow) progress getting where you want or at least away from the place you don't want to be. It's that extra 1mph that you are paying for if you need it. Sometimes it's not 4mph .vs. 5mph. It's ZERO (or negative) vs 1mph. I guess it's up to the individual as to what they think they need. On Monday, April 5, 2021, 12:47:09 PM PDT, Sam <shunter@gmail.com> wrote: But Thomas, a 21ft displacement hull shouldn't have a maximum hull speed much over 6 knots ( https://www.easycalculation.com/physics/classical-physics/hull-speed-calcula...). If you had an outgoing tide at 3 knots and were motoring against it at 4 knots, that is a speed of 7 knots relative to the water. Even if your outboard were 100HP, you wouldn't have gone much faster. Look at the resistance vs speed plot on this page http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?167599-Hull-speed-and-hull-effici..., resistance goes nearly vertical after you reach hull speed. I'm not sure if there are any studies on frequency of motor failures as a function of motor size, but my guess is that maintenance is a better predictor. Either way, I think waiting until the current was lower is the only non-daredevil thing to do in that situation. Sam On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 12:29 PM Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
I too have anguished about the tradeoff in power versus weight on the transom. With my present Monty 17 I have decided that a 3.5 tohatsu will suit my sailing needs. I do not plan on making it up to the San Juans as much as I would love to have a Monty up there. I am 74 and live in central Texas so lake sailing is my alternative. Once upon a time, I had a 21 foot sailboat with a 4hp outboard on it. I was attempting to motor into Port Everglades from the Atlantic Ocean on a falling tide. The outgoing current was over three knots, my diminutive ob could push me forward somewhat less than four knots. At this particular time of day rush hour traffic is heavy on the road which had a drawbridge over the entrance to Port Everglades. So there I was, full throttle, trying to enter the port against an outgoing tide. I was barely creeping forward under the raised drawbridge while making eye contact with the bridge operation attendant. He was NOT smiling as he peered down at me. He was holding up Friday afternoon rushhour traffic because of me and my tiny boat being pushed by a tiny motor. I thought I had cleared the bridge. It is HARD to tell where the top of your mast is and the bottom of bridges is from the cockpit. Suddenly the attendant started lowering the bridge! The onrushing steel sliced through the air about five feet aft of my mast. Just as suddenly I had the realization that if my suffering ob died at that moment I would be swept back under that bridge with all sorts of nasty consequences. I made it out of the funneled tide rush into calmer waters but learned that day that if there is any doubt about how much hp to get for your boat---there is NO doubt. Better to err on the side of caution (as in most everything in boating) that to suffer the daredevil's demise.
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 2:07 PM Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
On my M23 there are definitely places in the San Juan Islands where I can barely make 0.2 kts head way against the current with a Honda 9.9 at full throttle (and other places where I would never even attempt to go against the current). Obviously there is a large difference between boats here, but a 2 hp motor on an M17 or even an M15 would probably have a similarly difficult time. Usually one can plan a course to coincide with the currents but occasionally you have the dilemma of choosing which location you will have to buck the current (or choose an alternate destination).
My 2¢ only. Others with M17 or M15 experience in the Islands may have better information.
Mark Dvorscak M23 M15 Former M17
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
IMO 4HP motor is a great size for a cruising M17s. A 3.5-HP will work just as well. A 2/2.3/2.5 is fine for 70% of what one will experience. Anything bigger than 4HP is just more that doesn't help ... especially with current. The displacement hull design means you hit max speed and then done. More horses doesn't help. HP can assist in wind and to a less extent waves. The problem now is there are no new build true 4HP motors. All are repowered 6HP blocks - so heavy! The old Yamaha 4HP was a true 4HP block. It has been discontinued for years. A long, 20", shaft motor is needed on all Jerry's 15 & 17 designs, the 15" standard shaft motors will cavitate easily in a slight chop. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the little motors have a way of charging the battery if that's important to you.I don't believe nice little Honda 2hp (which is pretty darn nice) has a way of charging the batteries, but I think the next size up did have some sort of alternator/generator add-on, which could be a nice feature. On Monday, April 5, 2021, 12:16:32 PM PDT, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: IMO 4HP motor is a great size for a cruising M17s. A 3.5-HP will work just as well. A 2/2.3/2.5 is fine for 70% of what one will experience. Anything bigger than 4HP is just more that doesn't help ... especially with current. The displacement hull design means you hit max speed and then done. More horses doesn't help. HP can assist in wind and to a less extent waves. The problem now is there are no new build true 4HP motors. All are repowered 6HP blocks - so heavy! The old Yamaha 4HP was a true 4HP block. It has been discontinued for years. A long, 20", shaft motor is needed on all Jerry's 15 & 17 designs, the 15" standard shaft motors will cavitate easily in a slight chop. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
Lawrence and others: The only motors that have the option for charging are 4HP or greater (and usually it is non-supported mod adding the 6HP alternator the 4HP powerhead - as the powerhead and other bits, excluding the carburator, are the same for manufacturer's 4-6HP motors). Larry Take, aka owner of M17 Corn Dog, purchased a Suzuki 6HP so he could get an alternator. The other solution is to get a solar panel and a good controller. I did just fine with a 30watt panel, controller and group 24 battery when I lived aboard my M17. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 12:30 PM Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the little motors have a way of charging the battery if that's important to you.I don't believe nice little Honda 2hp (which is pretty darn nice) has a way of charging the batteries, but I think the next size up did have some sort of alternator/generator add-on, which could be a nice feature.
On Monday, April 5, 2021, 12:16:32 PM PDT, Dave Scobie < scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
IMO 4HP motor is a great size for a cruising M17s. A 3.5-HP will work just as well.
A 2/2.3/2.5 is fine for 70% of what one will experience.
Anything bigger than 4HP is just more that doesn't help ... especially with current. The displacement hull design means you hit max speed and then done. More horses doesn't help.
HP can assist in wind and to a less extent waves.
The problem now is there are no new build true 4HP motors. All are repowered 6HP blocks - so heavy! The old Yamaha 4HP was a true 4HP block. It has been discontinued for years.
A long, 20", shaft motor is needed on all Jerry's 15 & 17 designs, the 15" standard shaft motors will cavitate easily in a slight chop.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
I'm an electricity hog compared to super greenies like you Dave :-) I "barely survived" on the Salish 100 with a 50 watt panel, but I always wanted more :) My panel is sometimes shaded by the sail and it's dark whenI want my tunes/lights/movies :-) I feared cloudy days. I've got another panel I'm threatening to mount..... On Monday, April 5, 2021, 1:16:16 PM PDT, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: Lawrence and others: The only motors that have the option for charging are 4HP or greater (and usually it is non-supported mod adding the 6HP alternator the 4HP powerhead - as the powerhead and other bits, excluding the carburator, are the same for manufacturer's 4-6HP motors). Larry Take, aka owner of M17 Corn Dog, purchased a Suzuki 6HP so he could get an alternator. The other solution is to get a solar panel and a good controller. I did just fine with a 30watt panel, controller and group 24 battery when I lived aboard my M17. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 12:30 PM Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the little motors have a way of charging the battery if that's important to you.I don't believe nice little Honda 2hp (which is pretty darn nice) has a way of charging the batteries, but I think the next size up did have some sort of alternator/generator add-on, which could be a nice feature.
On Monday, April 5, 2021, 12:16:32 PM PDT, Dave Scobie < scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
IMO 4HP motor is a great size for a cruising M17s. A 3.5-HP will work just as well.
A 2/2.3/2.5 is fine for 70% of what one will experience.
Anything bigger than 4HP is just more that doesn't help ... especially with current. The displacement hull design means you hit max speed and then done. More horses doesn't help.
HP can assist in wind and to a less extent waves.
The problem now is there are no new build true 4HP motors. All are repowered 6HP blocks - so heavy! The old Yamaha 4HP was a true 4HP block. It has been discontinued for years.
A long, 20", shaft motor is needed on all Jerry's 15 & 17 designs, the 15" standard shaft motors will cavitate easily in a slight chop.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Apr 5, 2021, 11:35 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all: I worry about the currents in the San Juan’s and the need for the 4 horse. But I will investigate getting smaller motor Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 5, 2021, at 08:18, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Why do you have a 75# outboard on a Monty 17? My 2 hp pushes my boat easily at 4kts, 1/2 throttle. Its plenty of motor. It weighs 27# and keeps the aft of the boat light and out or the water. The motor stays in the garage till I leave on a trip. When leaving I clamp it to the transom where it stays for the duration. To tow, I rotate the motor to the"reverse" position so it can't move up.
I launch many times in a season and not having to deal with the motor each time saves me a lot of trouble. I also changed to the Rudder Craft rudder with the extendable Mast support for the same reason. When I arrive at the marina the rudder is in place and I am also ready to raise my mast. Lately I have been rigging and unrigging after I launch. I find it safer to do so when the deck is not so high from the parking lot.
I also like no fuel tank in the cockpit. Nothing underfoot.
On a sail in the delta there was much water hyacinth tangling up on motors. Because my motor is mounted directly to to transom, the prop is closer and within reach to clear of obstructions.
Keep it simple!
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
participants (7)
-
Dave Scobie -
Jon Barber -
Lawrence Winiarski -
Mark Dvorscak -
Peter Zimowsky -
Sam -
Thomas Buzzi