Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 204, Issue 5

9 Feb 2020

      Many thanks for the recommendations regarding mast step and compression post removal on my Montgomery 17.
Regret confusion on hinged mast step. It is the original fixed stainless steel mount with stainless bolt that allows 
mast to pivot up/down when raising-lowering. My bad. Hoping all is well as to any water intrusion issues in the gelcoat once
I pull everything apart. I don’t notice any soft spots or such at the mast step, cabin top area soooo will hope for the best once
I perform the job.

Smooth Sailing.

Kirby S. 
Montgomery 17 1985
Hull #395

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Subject: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 204, Issue 5

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Mast Step and Compression Post Removal on Montgomery 17
      (Jason Leckie)
   2. Re: Mast Step and Compression Post Removal on Montgomery 17
      (Edward Epifani)
   3. Re: polyester resin (Dave Scobie)
   4. Re: polyester resin (jerry montgomery)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 17:13:39 -0800
From: Jason Leckie <leckie.jas@gmail.com>
To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
	<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mast Step and Compression Post Removal on
	Montgomery 17
Message-ID:
	<CAD2xLyRxb5iNzYzZmNAVTp=6ZD=ZmZa62owBu906UUw8yWjukg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Kind of a different topic but on the preventative side of this topic to try
to avoid future repairs such as those all are describing.

Something that I have discovered through my use of tarps, attempting to
keep my boat nice and dry when it's out in the elements (in our soggy west
coast weather) over the winter months is vapour barrier plastic. I have
found that tarps don't really last that long (unless you buy a high end
tarp probably.)

For this winter I used vapour barrier plastic attached to 3/4'
plumbing/conduit piping secured by zap straps layed across the mast like
fish bones and overlaid with my old beat up tarps just to hold it all
together during the frequent windy days of winter. My boat has stayed dry
as bone all winter long.

One day I would like to build a 'boat' port but for now, this works well.

Jason Leckie
Kuma M17 1980
Vancouver, BC/Point Roberts, WA

On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 6:54 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
...
Kirby.
I'm confused by your use of the term 'hinged'?  Jerry didn't install hinged
mast steps (aka tabernacles).  What does yours look like?  A picture would
be great.
The compression post is in two parts.  The upper, longer is above the
v-berth going to the cabin roof.  The lower is bellow the v-berth.  The
post sections are just cast-off pieces of a mast.
No real reason to remove the lower section unless something looks out of
place.
The upper section is held in place with L-brackets (at least it was on my
M17).  It is normal for the compression post not to be a snug fit when the
mast isn't raised.
The upper section needs to be removed so you can get at the nuts holding
the tabernacle to the house.
Remove the tabernacle and inspect the core for water damage.  If all good
rebed using 3M4000 or 4200 or Sikaflex 291.  As already stated do NOT use
silicone or 3M5200.
If there is water in the core see this link for how to repair extensive
repair example -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m17-375.com/2018/12/17/do-you-know-the-conditio...
(The above link will also has pictures showing the standard M17 mast step.)
If there is anything else I can do to assist let me know.
:: Dave Scobie
:: M6'8" #650
:: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
:: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
:: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sat, Feb 1, 2020, 6:46 PM Kirby Stross <capkirby0122@gmail.com> wrote:
...
I need to remove the hinged mast step mounted on deck and the below deck
aluminum compression post on my 1985 Montgomery 17. I want to recaulk the
stainless mast step and inspect the inside mounted aluminum compression
post. Both are original installations.
What is the easiest, best way to accomplish this.
Best regards,
Kirby Stross
1985 Montgomery 17
------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 15:31:28 +0000
From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com>
To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
	<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mast Step and Compression Post Removal on
	Montgomery 17
Message-ID:
	<DM5PR18MB1340347CDBD4261389F827AFB21F0@DM5PR18MB1340.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re bed all through deck fittings.  3: ventilate. Despite the high quality Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks. Trapped moisture  INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That?s why it?s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel.
Ed

Sent from my iPhone
...
On Feb 7, 2020, at 5:14 PM, Jason Leckie <leckie.jas@gmail.com> wrote:
Kind of a different topic but on the preventative side of this topic to try
to avoid future repairs such as those all are describing.
Something that I have discovered through my use of tarps, attempting to
keep my boat nice and dry when it's out in the elements (in our soggy west
coast weather) over the winter months is vapour barrier plastic. I have
found that tarps don't really last that long (unless you buy a high end
tarp probably.)
For this winter I used vapour barrier plastic attached to 3/4'
plumbing/conduit piping secured by zap straps layed across the mast like
fish bones and overlaid with my old beat up tarps just to hold it all
together during the frequent windy days of winter. My boat has stayed dry
as bone all winter long.
One day I would like to build a 'boat' port but for now, this works well.
Jason Leckie
Kuma M17 1980
Vancouver, BC/Point Roberts, WA
...
On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 6:54 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Kirby.
I'm confused by your use of the term 'hinged'?  Jerry didn't install hinged
mast steps (aka tabernacles).  What does yours look like?  A picture would
be great.
The compression post is in two parts.  The upper, longer is above the
v-berth going to the cabin roof.  The lower is bellow the v-berth.  The
post sections are just cast-off pieces of a mast.
No real reason to remove the lower section unless something looks out of
place.
The upper section is held in place with L-brackets (at least it was on my
M17).  It is normal for the compression post not to be a snug fit when the
mast isn't raised.
The upper section needs to be removed so you can get at the nuts holding
the tabernacle to the house.
Remove the tabernacle and inspect the core for water damage.  If all good
rebed using 3M4000 or 4200 or Sikaflex 291.  As already stated do NOT use
silicone or 3M5200.
If there is water in the core see this link for how to repair extensive
repair example -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m17-375.com/2018/12/17/do-you-know-the-conditio...
(The above link will also has pictures showing the standard M17 mast step.)
If there is anything else I can do to assist let me know.
:: Dave Scobie
:: M6'8" #650
:: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
:: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
:: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
...
On Sat, Feb 1, 2020, 6:46 PM Kirby Stross <capkirby0122@gmail.com> wrote:
I need to remove the hinged mast step mounted on deck and the below deck
aluminum compression post on my 1985 Montgomery 17. I want to recaulk the
stainless mast step and inspect the inside mounted aluminum compression
post. Both are original installations.
What is the easiest, best way to accomplish this.
Best regards,
Kirby Stross
1985 Montgomery 17
------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 08:49:36 -0800
From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com>
To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats
	<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin
Message-ID:
	<CAGjBOA61w9zr2WQW7_4PCx=ZfNjpPm1B=KxD+zZVnukK-QyrTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
...
...
That?s why it?s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction ,
and epoxy resins are now used.
A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles
heel.
Ed, respectfully, I think you are overstating things a bit.  there are very
very very few composite boats made using anything but polyester resin.
what many current boat builders do is lay up the outer two/three layers of
fiber BELOW the waterline using vinylester resin (almost as water resistant
as epoxy and a less expensive).  the rest of the layup below, and
everything above is done using poly.  there are exceptions - Sage Marine
being one: 100% vinylester resin above, below and all layers including the
gel coat.

epoxy is rarely used in production boats.  #1 reason is cost.  Next is,
until recently, there was no gel coat that would work reliably with epoxy
(the new epoxy gel coats are REALLY expensive!).

balsa/wood core that is above the waterline and NOT experiencing a leak
from a crack in the fiberglass or a leaking fitting will not rot.  there
isn't enough hydrostatic pressure to drive water into resin above the
waterline caused by humidity and condensation.  standing water in a filled
to capacity very very deep bilge may cause issue over A VERY VERY VERY VERY
long time.  the issue with poly resin is external to the hull below the
waterline - and this is mitigated using a barrier coat - and for a
trailerable boat that isn't in the water for extended time wasteful of
money (IMO).

i don't like the idea of a boat using balsa below the waterline.

modern wood boats are most commonly built with a covering of glass using
epoxy (i own & live on one).  most 'stitch and glue' craft use epoxy resin.

polyester fiberglass boats are REALLY REALLY really really long lasting.
they don't go away - this is the main reason, IMO, why there are so few new
sailboats built these days as there is LOTS LOTS LOTS of 'old plastic'
still around and available for cheap cheap cheap.  there are also a lot of
good condition old boats available for a lot less than a new build.  the
issue on old boats is leaking deck hardware.  prior owners that didn't keep
ahead of the condition of the bedding compound make simple fixes a BIG
problem.  AND then there owners using silicone to stop a boat leak ...
there needs to be a rule that there is only one tube of silicone at any
marine store and it is under lock and key and requires extensive
questioning before it is sold to any boat owner!!!  (ha ha)  Mboats using
silicone at only two locations - bedding the plastic portlights to the
house (the silicone is used as a gasket that will not eat the window
plastic.  the portlight is held in place by the stainless fasteners.)

in the marina my boat/home is currently moored she is one of the new boats
- and she was completed in 2005.  most of the boats present, especially the
sailboats, are majority 70s and 80s built craft.  maybe 10% of the boats
present were built after 2000.

balsa core is an excellent material when used _correctly_ (ex, my comment
above about not being below the waterline).  it is lighter and has better
compression load abilities than any same weight synthetic material.  foams
are just as likely to experience delamination caused by a leak as balsa.
foam, and similar, doesn't rot but once you get delamination the strength
is gone.

when buying a 'good old boat' check for evidence of leaks (easiest way is
to see if there is weeping rust around a fitting (stainless rusts) and/or
rust below deck on the nuts/bolts holding the fitting in place.  next thump
the deck and other areas where there is core (regardless if it is balsa,
foam, etc) for delamition using the handle of a heavy screwdriver. after
that if the boat uses steel ballast or has a steel
keel/centerboard/daggerboard check their condition/fuction.  for the rest
of the boat lmost everything can be fixed and/or replaced and/or custom
made (for those parts that are specific to a boat model and the
manufacturer is long gone).  I firmly believe people buying a used boat
need to spend a bit more money to purchased a boat that is ready to sail
condition v. one needing work - boat repairs take LOTS of money and LOTS of
time (there is no such thing as a 'free boat').  if you like working on
boats, and know how to do the work correctly (or are willing to learn), buy
a craft needing work.  if you like to sail buy a boat that is ready to sail.

one final thought - just buy new sails ... if the sails are older than 10
years they need to be replaced.

OK I'll step off my soapbox.  Now everyone get their boat ready for the
upcoming season!  If you are near/in AZ come to the Wrinkleboat Messabout
on Lake Pleasant AZ Feb. 15-17 2020.

:: Dave Scobie
:: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com
:: Montgomery 6'8" #650
:: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/
:: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/
:: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/
<http://www.m17-375.webs.com/>
:: former M15 owner #288 -  http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred

On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 7:32 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
...
As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re
bed all through deck fittings.  3: ventilate. Despite the high quality
Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and
does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks.
Trapped moisture  INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That?s why
it?s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy
resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa
core has an Achilles heel.
Ed
------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 17:45:11 +0000
From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com>
To: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com>, For and about Montgomery
	Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin
Message-ID:
	<BYAPR19MB28720326A2E833DCA290A1FAE61F0@BYAPR19MB2872.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"

Very good, Dave.  I agree with you 100%.  Will I see you at Lake Pleasant?

jerry

________________________________
From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 8:49 AM
To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin
...
...
That?s why it?s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction ,
and epoxy resins are now used.
A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles
heel.
Ed, respectfully, I think you are overstating things a bit.  there are very
very very few composite boats made using anything but polyester resin.
what many current boat builders do is lay up the outer two/three layers of
fiber BELOW the waterline using vinylester resin (almost as water resistant
as epoxy and a less expensive).  the rest of the layup below, and
everything above is done using poly.  there are exceptions - Sage Marine
being one: 100% vinylester resin above, below and all layers including the
gel coat.

epoxy is rarely used in production boats.  #1 reason is cost.  Next is,
until recently, there was no gel coat that would work reliably with epoxy
(the new epoxy gel coats are REALLY expensive!).

balsa/wood core that is above the waterline and NOT experiencing a leak
from a crack in the fiberglass or a leaking fitting will not rot.  there
isn't enough hydrostatic pressure to drive water into resin above the
waterline caused by humidity and condensation.  standing water in a filled
to capacity very very deep bilge may cause issue over A VERY VERY VERY VERY
long time.  the issue with poly resin is external to the hull below the
waterline - and this is mitigated using a barrier coat - and for a
trailerable boat that isn't in the water for extended time wasteful of
money (IMO).

i don't like the idea of a boat using balsa below the waterline.

modern wood boats are most commonly built with a covering of glass using
epoxy (i own & live on one).  most 'stitch and glue' craft use epoxy resin.

polyester fiberglass boats are REALLY REALLY really really long lasting.
they don't go away - this is the main reason, IMO, why there are so few new
sailboats built these days as there is LOTS LOTS LOTS of 'old plastic'
still around and available for cheap cheap cheap.  there are also a lot of
good condition old boats available for a lot less than a new build.  the
issue on old boats is leaking deck hardware.  prior owners that didn't keep
ahead of the condition of the bedding compound make simple fixes a BIG
problem.  AND then there owners using silicone to stop a boat leak ...
there needs to be a rule that there is only one tube of silicone at any
marine store and it is under lock and key and requires extensive
questioning before it is sold to any boat owner!!!  (ha ha)  Mboats using
silicone at only two locations - bedding the plastic portlights to the
house (the silicone is used as a gasket that will not eat the window
plastic.  the portlight is held in place by the stainless fasteners.)

in the marina my boat/home is currently moored she is one of the new boats
- and she was completed in 2005.  most of the boats present, especially the
sailboats, are majority 70s and 80s built craft.  maybe 10% of the boats
present were built after 2000.

balsa core is an excellent material when used _correctly_ (ex, my comment
above about not being below the waterline).  it is lighter and has better
compression load abilities than any same weight synthetic material.  foams
are just as likely to experience delamination caused by a leak as balsa.
foam, and similar, doesn't rot but once you get delamination the strength
is gone.

when buying a 'good old boat' check for evidence of leaks (easiest way is
to see if there is weeping rust around a fitting (stainless rusts) and/or
rust below deck on the nuts/bolts holding the fitting in place.  next thump
the deck and other areas where there is core (regardless if it is balsa,
foam, etc) for delamition using the handle of a heavy screwdriver. after
that if the boat uses steel ballast or has a steel
keel/centerboard/daggerboard check their condition/fuction.  for the rest
of the boat lmost everything can be fixed and/or replaced and/or custom
made (for those parts that are specific to a boat model and the
manufacturer is long gone).  I firmly believe people buying a used boat
need to spend a bit more money to purchased a boat that is ready to sail
condition v. one needing work - boat repairs take LOTS of money and LOTS of
time (there is no such thing as a 'free boat').  if you like working on
boats, and know how to do the work correctly (or are willing to learn), buy
a craft needing work.  if you like to sail buy a boat that is ready to sail.

one final thought - just buy new sails ... if the sails are older than 10
years they need to be replaced.

OK I'll step off my soapbox.  Now everyone get their boat ready for the
upcoming season!  If you are near/in AZ come to the Wrinkleboat Messabout
on Lake Pleasant AZ Feb. 15-17 2020.

:: Dave Scobie
:: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com
:: Montgomery 6'8" #650
:: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/
:: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/
:: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/
<http://www.m17-375.webs.com/>
:: former M15 owner #288 -  http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred

On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 7:32 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
...
As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re
bed all through deck fittings.  3: ventilate. Despite the high quality
Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and
does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks.
Trapped moisture  INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That?s why
it?s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy
resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa
core has an Achilles heel.
Ed
------------------------------

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End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 204, Issue 5
************************************************

Kirby Stross

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