Thank you Jon for the history. I am almost convinced I will be removing all the steel. Makes sense while the boat is down hard and sailing weather will not improve for several months. TJ de Lacy M17-981 WaterBound presently DirtBound -----Original Message----- From: Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2021 10:19 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Ballast replacement My M17, Ol'44, hull # 44 had the dreaded iron shot originally. Sean and Bob E did a fine job replacing not only the ballast but the entire keel. Photos are available somewhere. I will try to add them to my MSOG photosite page. The new ballast is lead. Problem solved. The other advantage to using lead ballast is choice of placement. Since lead by weight takes up less volume, you can decide where to put it. Sean said he moved the new ballast forward to compensate for crew weight in the cockpit. Does this give me an advantage against other 17's? Possibly. This is a fast boat. The floor was cut out inside the cabin to fill the void with lead. I call it a scar. It is slippery, so I covered it with a non skid vinyl "floor". The work was definitely first cabin. Another fine vintage boat saved from the wreckers! On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 9:42 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results (John Schinnerer) 2. Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results (John Schinnerer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:38:53 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Message-ID: <6c5b13d9-866e-738d-720d-d066e1d99cc6@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Here's the available pages on the wayback machine. You'll have to click each one listed on the page below to see if the repairs are in there or not. The home page is there and has a link to repairs stuff but that link is not archived. Could be in there though:
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://havasumontgomerys.piczo.com/*
cheers, John
On 11/22/21 9:30 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
There's a chance you could find the pages in the web wayback machine (internet archive):
If you do, save them to your local device for easy reference...
cheers, John
On 11/22/21 8:11 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
TJ:
A couple folks have replaced the ballast of the older steel-punchings boats.
Many years ago very good site by Sean Mulligan outlined replacing the ballast of his M23. The steps are extremely similar for doing the project on a M17 or M15. That site is no longer.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 7:59 AM <tdelacy@wavecable.com> wrote:
John,
Thank for your feedback.
I am leaning toward full ballast replacement.
I thought I even saw pictures from an individual that executed the steel to lead ballast replacement, but I was unable to find the site.
Fortunately there is a lot of information and I may not have been diligent.
TJ de Lacy M-17-981 WaterBound presently DirtBound
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2021 8:27 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results
I would say, re water in the keel and additional rusting and effects of that over time, anything could happen, including nothing that causes problems, to total lockup of CB and/or bursting of keel.
My M17 keel has had water in it at some point(s) probably long before I owned it. There was some damage around the CB stop pin (busted out downwards on one side at some point in past) which had been poorly repaired functionally, but cosmetically made to look solid. I didn't notice it until maybe my second season, after having it in the water for a month, then back on trailer in driveway. A slightly rusty drip mark on driveway clued me in. I explored and repaired and the keel is AFAIK watertight since then. But...
How long it had been like that before I bought it I don't know, nor how many times water had gone in and then dripped out, nor whether only fresh or also salt water had gotten in at some past time.
In any case, the CB worked fine, and still does, and there is no sign of swelling on the exterior either, a little over five years later.
The boat was sitting on the hard for at least several years prior to my buying it, so add that time to how long it's had wet inside the keel.
Maybe my pour is not so tight, or full, or is distributed so that there is space for expansion internally, all just by chance of the pour volume and distribution and whatnot. Or maybe there is just not much rusting happening.
I did notice that the steel punchings in my keel still felt and smelled of machine oil, so probably had a film of it on them when put in, which would be a water repellent/rust inhibitor to some degree. And the few that came out when I did some exploratory drilling were not on average very rusty or rusty at all.
On the other hand there's some folks here who've had all the worst problems from water getting into the steel ballast.
Including some complete replacements of steel with lead - some of those are on the MSOG photo site, aren't they?
Boats that have been leaking into steel ballast keels without problems we mostly don't know about...we only know about the problem ones.
cheers, John
On 11/21/21 8:02 PM, tdelacy@wavecable.com wrote:
For and about Montgomery Sailboats,
Update:
The boat is off the trailer, the center board is removed as well as approximately 9 lbs of steel ballast from the starboard shoal keel just forward of the center board pivot pin.
Question:
If I am successful in sealing the shoal keel water leaks, what do you think the probability that steel ballast will continue to rust and expand resulting in future cracks?
Background:
1. The shoal keel that I have opened is dry. 2. The ballast is very cohesive. Some of the punchings have actually fused into solid lumps. 3. Port side is not cracked. 3. I am concerned with the amount of shoal keel skin that I would need to remove for ballast access it will be difficult to retain the shoal keel shape. 4. For my current situation, it is actually easier to obtain lead shot to replace the steel ballast. Because lead density is 1.44 times greater than steel, I believe I will have a noticeable lower CG on the starboard side if I only replace ballast on the starboard side.
Tim de Lacy Waterbound Hull # MMP 173320981
-----Original Message----- From: tdelacy@wavecable.com <tdelacy@wavecable.com> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 8:13 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results
Bob,
1. Re: Drilled hole - no water.
A. However, water intrusion is not unreasonable, if there was a path into the shoal keel.
B. From the time the tree fell until I was able to relocate the trailer into a replacement metal tube and fabric structure was several months during our raining season.
(1) I did have to pump water out of the sump.
(2) I did have an amazing amount of water trapped in my tarp covering the boat and in the cockpit.
(3) My fabric structure is dark green and is several degrees warmer than the outside temperature.
a. Combine the elevated interior temperature with our unusually hot summer and it is not unreasonable to assume the shoal keel has dried out.
2. Re: picture P8230005.
A. This is just aft of the centerboard trunk in hull, starboard side, similar port side.
B. Is this a possible water path into the shoal keel?
(1) Water could easily enter this opening after the sump filled.
(1) Should I seal these openings or are they intentional vents?
3. Commitments this weekend and labor day will slow any progress on my end.
4. My next focus will be to design a cradle to lift the boat off the trailer and remove the centerboard and allow access for shoal keel repair.
A. I am leaning toward removing the steel plugs and replacing with lead.
(1) I assumed with my hull number that I was in the lead ballast build.
a. However, it isn't often you see lead rust. 😊
5. I am assuming my sump is water tight, see P8230007.
A. You usually do not get that nasty growth if there is a reasonable exit water path or the shoal keel is water tight and was completely filled with water.
Tim de Lacy
-----Original Message----- From: tdelacy@wavecable.com <tdelacy@wavecable.com> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 4:21 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair attn: Dave Scobie
Thank you for all your comments.
I'll execute the drill option, recommended by Mr. Eeg.
I'll provide feedback.
When I decide on the repair, I'll try to document all my steps. Would be nice to add a recipe for recovery to the collection of M15 and 17 repairs.
Tim de Lacy
-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley@comcast.net < <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:13 AM
To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' < <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair attn: Dave Scobie
I tend to agree with Bob that your crack was not caused by the falling tree. In addition to freezing water, the other thing that could cause that crack is rusting steel, which expands as it oxidizes. You will need to decide whether just to fair it and fill it or do a deep dive and replace the steel with lead.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Eeg < <mailto:montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> montgomeryboats@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 11:03 AM
To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair attn: Dave Scobie
Tim
Drill a 1/4 inch hole on the very bottom of your keel and see if any water comes out.
I can see RUST inside that crack which indicates water. Water freezes and expands and cracks the keel. This happened on Miss T a 17 owned by John Edwards and that crack is the same. John actually bought Tom Buzzi’s 17 recently as a replacement.
I don’t see how a tree would crack your hull from the inside out like that.
I hope I’am wrong
Bob
[cid:5B798252-10FD-498F-9FC5-2EC532883BAC]
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2021, at 6:49 AM, <mailto:tdelacy@wavecable.com> tdelacy@wavecable.com wrote:
Dave,
Last November, I had a tree crash through my fence and boat shed. My M17 saved the ground from being damaged.
After removing the debris it appeared the only damage was to the starboard mooring cleat.
Unfortunately, today as I began my list of items to restore my M17, I found the exterior starboard centerboard shoal keel was cracked from the tree fall damage.
The previous owners had taken good care of the boat and the shoal keel was not cracked. I suspect the force of the tree impacting the starboard stern mooring cleat raised the boat bow up and gravity slammed it back down upon the trailer.
Do you have any references of how I should proceed?
I did quite a bit of epoxy repair to my former harpoon 5.2. I am looking forward to venturing into polyester fiberglass with gel coat finish. I could not attain a painted finish as good as the gel coat. However, as this is the underside, I am leaning toward rebuilding the surface with epoxy?
Additionally, re: the stop pin. As I do not intent to race but cruise, do you recommend faring in the stop pin or leaving a proud external stop pin (reference friends early 70's M17). As I am in the Puget Sound region, I expect I will have to pull and recoat the centerboard every 5 years. It just seems an accessible stop pin would be beneficial.
Tim de Lacy
--
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<P8220030.JPG>
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-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 09:41:25 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Message-ID: <99cc29db-314c-1ca6-653a-ab537a244c9a@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Here is the archived home page, this was the site:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120304061007/http://www.havasumontgomery s.piczo.com/?cr=1
Unfortunately the link for repairs/restorations does not appear to have any archived pages... :-(
cheers, John
On 11/22/21 9:38 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
Here's the available pages on the wayback machine. You'll have to click each one listed on the page below to see if the repairs are in there or not. The home page is there and has a link to repairs stuff but that link is not archived. Could be in there though:
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://havasumontgomerys.piczo.com/*
cheers, John
On 11/22/21 9:30 AM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
There's a chance you could find the pages in the web wayback machine (internet archive):
If you do, save them to your local device for easy reference...
cheers, John
On 11/22/21 8:11 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
TJ:
A couple folks have replaced the ballast of the older steel-punchings boats.
Many years ago very good site by Sean Mulligan outlined replacing the ballast of his M23. The steps are extremely similar for doing the project on a M17 or M15. That site is no longer.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 7:59 AM <tdelacy@wavecable.com> wrote:
John,
Thank for your feedback.
I am leaning toward full ballast replacement.
I thought I even saw pictures from an individual that executed the steel to lead ballast replacement, but I was unable to find the site.
Fortunately there is a lot of information and I may not have been diligent.
TJ de Lacy M-17-981 WaterBound presently DirtBound
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2021 8:27 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 11/21/21 Update RE: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results
I would say, re water in the keel and additional rusting and effects of that over time, anything could happen, including nothing that causes problems, to total lockup of CB and/or bursting of keel.
My M17 keel has had water in it at some point(s) probably long before I owned it. There was some damage around the CB stop pin (busted out downwards on one side at some point in past) which had been poorly repaired functionally, but cosmetically made to look solid. I didn't notice it until maybe my second season, after having it in the water for a month, then back on trailer in driveway. A slightly rusty drip mark on driveway clued me in. I explored and repaired and the keel is AFAIK watertight since then. But...
How long it had been like that before I bought it I don't know, nor how many times water had gone in and then dripped out, nor whether only fresh or also salt water had gotten in at some past time.
In any case, the CB worked fine, and still does, and there is no sign of swelling on the exterior either, a little over five years later.
The boat was sitting on the hard for at least several years prior to my buying it, so add that time to how long it's had wet inside the keel.
Maybe my pour is not so tight, or full, or is distributed so that there is space for expansion internally, all just by chance of the pour volume and distribution and whatnot. Or maybe there is just not much rusting happening.
I did notice that the steel punchings in my keel still felt and smelled of machine oil, so probably had a film of it on them when put in, which would be a water repellent/rust inhibitor to some degree. And the few that came out when I did some exploratory drilling were not on average very rusty or rusty at all.
On the other hand there's some folks here who've had all the worst problems from water getting into the steel ballast.
Including some complete replacements of steel with lead - some of those are on the MSOG photo site, aren't they?
Boats that have been leaking into steel ballast keels without problems we mostly don't know about...we only know about the problem ones.
cheers, John
On 11/21/21 8:02 PM, tdelacy@wavecable.com wrote:
For and about Montgomery Sailboats,
Update:
The boat is off the trailer, the center board is removed as well as approximately 9 lbs of steel ballast from the starboard shoal keel just forward of the center board pivot pin.
Question:
If I am successful in sealing the shoal keel water leaks, what do you think the probability that steel ballast will continue to rust and expand resulting in future cracks?
Background:
1. The shoal keel that I have opened is dry. 2. The ballast is very cohesive. Some of the punchings have actually fused into solid lumps. 3. Port side is not cracked. 3. I am concerned with the amount of shoal keel skin that I would need to remove for ballast access it will be difficult to retain the shoal keel shape. 4. For my current situation, it is actually easier to obtain lead shot to replace the steel ballast. Because lead density is 1.44 times greater than steel, I believe I will have a noticeable lower CG on the starboard side if I only replace ballast on the starboard side.
Tim de Lacy Waterbound Hull # MMP 173320981
-----Original Message----- From: tdelacy@wavecable.com <tdelacy@wavecable.com> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 8:13 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: 8/23/22 Update Re cracked shoal keel drill results
Bob,
1. Re: Drilled hole - no water.
A. However, water intrusion is not unreasonable, if there was a path into the shoal keel.
B. From the time the tree fell until I was able to relocate the trailer into a replacement metal tube and fabric structure was several months during our raining season.
(1) I did have to pump water out of the sump.
(2) I did have an amazing amount of water trapped in my tarp covering the boat and in the cockpit.
(3) My fabric structure is dark green and is several degrees warmer than the outside temperature.
a. Combine the elevated interior temperature with our unusually hot summer and it is not unreasonable to assume the shoal keel has dried out.
2. Re: picture P8230005.
A. This is just aft of the centerboard trunk in hull, starboard side, similar port side.
B. Is this a possible water path into the shoal keel?
(1) Water could easily enter this opening after the sump filled.
(1) Should I seal these openings or are they intentional vents?
3. Commitments this weekend and labor day will slow any progress on my end.
4. My next focus will be to design a cradle to lift the boat off the trailer and remove the centerboard and allow access for shoal keel repair.
A. I am leaning toward removing the steel plugs and replacing with lead.
(1) I assumed with my hull number that I was in the lead ballast build.
a. However, it isn't often you see lead rust. 😊
5. I am assuming my sump is water tight, see P8230007.
A. You usually do not get that nasty growth if there is a reasonable exit water path or the shoal keel is water tight and was completely filled with water.
Tim de Lacy
-----Original Message----- From: tdelacy@wavecable.com <tdelacy@wavecable.com> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 4:21 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair attn: Dave Scobie
Thank you for all your comments.
I'll execute the drill option, recommended by Mr. Eeg.
I'll provide feedback.
When I decide on the repair, I'll try to document all my steps. Would be nice to add a recipe for recovery to the collection of M15 and 17 repairs.
Tim de Lacy
-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley@comcast.net < <mailto:swwheatley@comcast.net> swwheatley@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:13 AM
To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' < <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair attn: Dave Scobie
I tend to agree with Bob that your crack was not caused by the falling tree. In addition to freezing water, the other thing that could cause that crack is rusting steel, which expands as it oxidizes. You will need to decide whether just to fair it and fill it or do a deep dive and replace the steel with lead.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Eeg < <mailto:montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> montgomeryboats@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 11:03 AM
To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Subject: M_Boats: Re: 8/22/21 M17 Recommendation shoal keel repair attn: Dave Scobie
Tim
Drill a 1/4 inch hole on the very bottom of your keel and see if any water comes out.
I can see RUST inside that crack which indicates water. Water freezes and expands and cracks the keel. This happened on Miss T a 17 owned by John Edwards and that crack is the same. John actually bought Tom Buzzi’s 17 recently as a replacement.
I don’t see how a tree would crack your hull from the inside out like that.
I hope I’am wrong
Bob
[cid:5B798252-10FD-498F-9FC5-2EC532883BAC]
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2021, at 6:49 AM, <mailto:tdelacy@wavecable.com> tdelacy@wavecable.com wrote:
Dave,
Last November, I had a tree crash through my fence and boat shed. My M17 saved the ground from being damaged.
After removing the debris it appeared the only damage was to the starboard mooring cleat.
Unfortunately, today as I began my list of items to restore my M17, I found the exterior starboard centerboard shoal keel was cracked from the tree fall damage.
The previous owners had taken good care of the boat and the shoal keel was not cracked. I suspect the force of the tree impacting the starboard stern mooring cleat raised the boat bow up and gravity slammed it back down upon the trailer.
Do you have any references of how I should proceed?
I did quite a bit of epoxy repair to my former harpoon 5.2. I am looking forward to venturing into polyester fiberglass with gel coat finish. I could not attain a painted finish as good as the gel coat. However, as this is the underside, I am leaning toward rebuilding the surface with epoxy?
Additionally, re: the stop pin. As I do not intent to race but cruise, do you recommend faring in the stop pin or leaving a proud external stop pin (reference friends early 70's M17). As I am in the Puget Sound region, I expect I will have to pull and recoat the centerboard every 5 years. It just seems an accessible stop pin would be beneficial.
Tim de Lacy
--
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<tree crash.jpg>
<boat impact.jpg>
<P8220027.JPG>
<P8220028.JPG>
<P8220030.JPG>
<P8220034.JPG>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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