I struggled with same PDF issues and finally found the Salus Coastal. Doesn't meet USA CG standards, but seems like a good good compromise. http://www.salusmarine.com/?products=coastal On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 2:00 PM, < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Safety Equip on your boat... (Jazzy) 2. Re: Safety Equip on your boat... (Mark Dvorscak) 3. Re: Safety Equip on your boat... (John Schinnerer) 4. Re: Nostalgia (bownez@juno.com) 5. Re: Safety Equip on your boat... (Thomas Buzzi) 6. Re: Safety Equip on your boat... (Thomas Buzzi) 7. Re: Safety Equip on your boat... (Thomas Buzzi) 8. Browsing old Messages... (Jazzy) 9. Re: Safety Equip on your boat... (John Schinnerer) 10. Re: Nostalgia (Thornton Wilkinson) 11. Re: Browsing old Messages... (Keith) 12. Re: Nostalgia (Keith) 13. Re: Safety Equip on your boat... (Dave Scobie)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:01:47 -0800 From: Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Safety Equip on your boat... Message-ID: < CAHJ-33Ekm4t+HVHtxgKCy5Laqu5Rjp2ABk5FB-rRMkcvyoVoxQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Tom if you meant to send me a pfd link or pic...I'm not seeing it. Believe it or not I'm having a hard time finding pfd with harness that's not auto. So if you know of something link me! Jazz
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 22:29:49 -0500 From: Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Safety Equip on your boat... Message-ID: <5daifha9akoebmlvm76qnbuq.1454297389845@email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
The only pfds that I have seen with a harness integrated that are not inflatables are designed for kayak and paddle sports. I don't know that the harness feature is up to the standard for an offshore vest. I don't think I would choose any that I've seen for offshore work, but that type of sailing isn't necessarily your plan either. I also haven't found any manufacturer or retailer that recommends the kayak designs for sailing. My recommendation is that you try on as many vests as possible, check out the manufacturer recommendations regarding appropriate use and make your own decision about what is right for you. You certainly don't want to take the advice that is no more than a personal opinion of someone on an internet discuss forum and run with it. Including what I've said! Mark
Sent from my U.S. Cellular? smartphone
Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom if you meant to send me a pfd link or pic...I'm not seeing it. Believe it or not I'm having a hard time finding pfd with harness that's not auto. So if you know of something link me! Jazz
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:40:20 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Safety Equip on your boat... Message-ID: <56AEEFC4.40500@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
From someone very familiar with paddlesport PFDs...aside from those with tow belts, what I've seen is mostly a difference in colors, styles, and marketing.
PFDs from makers that sell for both sailing and paddlesports offer (at upper quality levels at least, $99 or so and up) same or very similar items, maybe some different design details such as placement of pockets, zippers, and/or lash-tabs. In some cases the cut is a bit different, nothing major.
Paddling, especially whitewater or ocean surfing, generally requires at least as much (more in my experience) mobility (and more constantly) in arms and torso and head as sailing. I've never found my higher end paddling PFDs to be less than great for sailing, from dinghies on up.
One difference is that some kayaking PFDs have high-cut backs (no foam low part of the back), in order to clear seatback and/or cockpit rim in a high-seatback or deep-cockpit kayak. I can't think of any reason this would be a disadvantage for sailing, except for maybe when lounging back against the cockpit coaming... :-)
The "harness" design on a paddling PFD with harness is more of a belt, designed primarily for rescue towing another boat (or possibly person) in emergency situations. It is not a front-clip device, it is normally a front quick-release buckle with tow attachment ring in back. Plenty strong, but very different application. NOT appropriate as a sailing chest harness!
Sailing and climbing/caving chest harnesses are essentially the same functional design, and similar materials and strength ratings, with center front attachment point. Some caving/climbing models will have non-stainless or non-aluminum hardware; not good if you're at all in saltwater.
Yep, just my opinion and/or experience of course.
Here's an interesting post on practical-sailor from a few years back, about manual vs. auto inflate units and issues around tether releasing. Some interesting comments below it as well: http://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/-10560-1.html
Whoever posted that they couldn't find a non-inflatable PFD with sailing type safety harness appears to be right...I can't find one either, not yet anyhow.
One of the comments on link above mentions buying one made by Force 10 years before, and also can't find one now (and that was posted in July 2011). Unfortunate that manufacturers aren't providing that option...or maybe just not in the USA?
With USCG dropping the current/old USA PFD type rating system last year, it sounds like by 2017 or so we may have some additional options for PFD designs.
cheers, John S.
On 01/31/2016 07:29 PM, Mark Dvorscak wrote:
The only pfds that I have seen with a harness integrated that are not inflatables are designed for kayak and paddle sports. I don't know that the harness feature is up to the standard for an offshore vest. I don't think I would choose any that I've seen for offshore work, but that type of sailing isn't necessarily your plan either. I also haven't found any manufacturer or retailer that recommends the kayak designs for sailing. My recommendation is that you try on as many vests as possible, check out the manufacturer recommendations regarding appropriate use and make your own decision about what is right for you. You certainly don't want to take the advice that is no more than a personal opinion of someone on an internet discuss forum and run with it. Including what I've said! Mark
Sent from my U.S. Cellular? smartphone
Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom if you meant to send me a pfd link or pic...I'm not seeing it. Believe it or not I'm having a hard time finding pfd with harness that's not auto. So if you know of something link me! Jazz
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 14:38:23 GMT From: "bownez@juno.com" <bownez@juno.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Nostalgia Message-ID: <20160201.083823.31452.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Hi Keith,
I go back to the paper newsletter days. I bought my 1976 M17 in 1996 after looking for one for 2 years.
Mr. Bones ____________________________________________________________ Get up to a $500 bonus with a qualifying deposit to an Ally IRA from outside Ally Bank http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/56af6e11b5c26e100ccbst01vuc
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 08:58:02 -0600 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Safety Equip on your boat... Message-ID: < CA+TbpAXJMR6s6FMDQgpACtKB0j5i+S9Jb2n91nKfBUxk19h98Q@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Jazz, Just upgraded my own safety gear yesterday. Found some decent stuff at competitive prices (believe it or not) at West Marine.com. Also some really nice (read comfortable) 16.5 lb flotation vests at NRS.com pfd's. I went with kayak style vests PFD type 3 CG approved because they are much more comfortable and less confining than the boxy standard bright orange things. NRS also has theirs lined with a netting that is supposed to allow air to flow beneath them, very important down here in the deep south. The combination(built in) jacket/safety belt items cost more than I wanted to spend. If you don't have one already I recommend visiting a West Marine store and picking up one of their telephone book sized catalogs. They are a wealth of information and they handle enough different brand names of items to be able to go to that company's website and comparison shop. Also on the web you will get other companies that deal with the same item. You can spend a whole day (I almost did) just shopping the web for what you want. Never heard of NRS before yesterday but they have some very impressive equipment, for example. Happy shopping. < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...
This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...
<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 9:01 PM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom if you meant to send me a pfd link or pic...I'm not seeing it. Believe it or not I'm having a hard time finding pfd with harness that's not auto. So if you know of something link me! Jazz
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 09:01:03 -0600 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Safety Equip on your boat... Message-ID: < CA+TbpAX3fyERj6gO41vPaf8J+emUPW3o9ueQC2q78znjfBOnDw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Mark, Good advice! I went with NRS for my vests and they are Coast Guard approved Type III's recommended for both paddle sports and sailing. The best vest is the one that covers the minimum bases of your needs AND is comfortable enough to wear.
Tom B < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...
This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...
<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
The only pfds that I have seen with a harness integrated that are not inflatables are designed for kayak and paddle sports. I don't know that the harness feature is up to the standard for an offshore vest. I don't think I would choose any that I've seen for offshore work, but that type of sailing isn't necessarily your plan either. I also haven't found any manufacturer or retailer that recommends the kayak designs for sailing. My recommendation is that you try on as many vests as possible, check out the manufacturer recommendations regarding appropriate use and make your own decision about what is right for you. You certainly don't want to take the advice that is no more than a personal opinion of someone on an internet discuss forum and run with it. Including what I've said! Mark
Sent from my U.S. Cellular? smartphone
Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom if you meant to send me a pfd link or pic...I'm not seeing it. Believe it or not I'm having a hard time finding pfd with harness that's not auto. So if you know of something link me! Jazz
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 09:08:53 -0600 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Safety Equip on your boat... Message-ID: <CA+TbpAWumH55MB+fo+3= 19gxrLjVPHo48mTGB-yXGk-Q9p8MoA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
John, I read your article and went from the auto inflate vest to regular kayak vests. I do like the auto inflate feature in case you are knocked unconscious while going overboard (or hitting your head on a piece of trash while doing an eskimo roll) but the mechanism MUST be kept maintained. I have gone to well ventilated Type III kayak vests CG, because they are much less confining for deck work. I have also purchased the standard SOSuspender harness to put over the vest and double release tether lines to tie me to the boat. By the time I get everything I need aboard for safe sailing I might need a bigger boat ;-} Tom B < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...
This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...
<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 11:40 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
From someone very familiar with paddlesport PFDs...aside from those with tow belts, what I've seen is mostly a difference in colors, styles, and marketing.
PFDs from makers that sell for both sailing and paddlesports offer (at upper quality levels at least, $99 or so and up) same or very similar items, maybe some different design details such as placement of pockets, zippers, and/or lash-tabs. In some cases the cut is a bit different, nothing major.
Paddling, especially whitewater or ocean surfing, generally requires at least as much (more in my experience) mobility (and more constantly) in arms and torso and head as sailing. I've never found my higher end paddling PFDs to be less than great for sailing, from dinghies on up.
One difference is that some kayaking PFDs have high-cut backs (no foam low part of the back), in order to clear seatback and/or cockpit rim in a high-seatback or deep-cockpit kayak. I can't think of any reason this would be a disadvantage for sailing, except for maybe when lounging back against the cockpit coaming... :-)
The "harness" design on a paddling PFD with harness is more of a belt, designed primarily for rescue towing another boat (or possibly person) in emergency situations. It is not a front-clip device, it is normally a front quick-release buckle with tow attachment ring in back. Plenty strong, but very different application. NOT appropriate as a sailing chest harness!
Sailing and climbing/caving chest harnesses are essentially the same functional design, and similar materials and strength ratings, with center front attachment point. Some caving/climbing models will have non-stainless or non-aluminum hardware; not good if you're at all in saltwater.
Yep, just my opinion and/or experience of course.
Here's an interesting post on practical-sailor from a few years back, about manual vs. auto inflate units and issues around tether releasing. Some interesting comments below it as well: http://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/-10560-1.html
Whoever posted that they couldn't find a non-inflatable PFD with sailing type safety harness appears to be right...I can't find one either, not yet anyhow.
One of the comments on link above mentions buying one made by Force 10 years before, and also can't find one now (and that was posted in July 2011). Unfortunate that manufacturers aren't providing that option...or maybe just not in the USA?
With USCG dropping the current/old USA PFD type rating system last year, it sounds like by 2017 or so we may have some additional options for PFD designs.
cheers, John S.
On 01/31/2016 07:29 PM, Mark Dvorscak wrote:
The only pfds that I have seen with a harness integrated that are not inflatables are designed for kayak and paddle sports. I don't know that the harness feature is up to the standard for an offshore vest. I don't think I would choose any that I've seen for offshore work, but that type of sailing isn't necessarily your plan either. I also haven't found any manufacturer or retailer that recommends the kayak designs for sailing. My recommendation is that you try on as many vests as possible, check out the manufacturer recommendations regarding appropriate use and make your own decision about what is right for you. You certainly don't want to take the advice that is no more than a personal opinion of someone on an internet discuss forum and run with it. Including what I've said! Mark
Sent from my U.S. Cellular? smartphone
Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom if you meant to send me a pfd link or pic...I'm not seeing it.
Believe it or not I'm having a hard time finding pfd with harness that's not auto. So if you know of something link me! Jazz
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 09:17:20 -0800 From: Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Browsing old Messages... Message-ID: <CAHJ-33FiXsJuY3LBoVikf6d5+K9epMX= RcyUM5XO2WFhrv3nTg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Can someone tell me how to browse old stuff? Thanks...
Jazz
------------------------------
Message: 9 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 09:27:27 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Safety Equip on your boat... Message-ID: <56AF957F.1080300@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
NRS has good stuff generally. A long standing paddlesports supplier (rafting, kayaking, canoeing, now SUP also). Their "house brand" (NRS brand) sometimes provides similar quality to better known name brands at a slightly lower price.
cheers, John S.
On 02/01/2016 06:58 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Jazz, Just upgraded my own safety gear yesterday. Found some decent stuff at competitive prices (believe it or not) at West Marine.com. Also some really nice (read comfortable) 16.5 lb flotation vests at NRS.com pfd's. I went with kayak style vests PFD type 3 CG approved because they are much more comfortable and less confining than the boxy standard bright orange things. NRS also has theirs lined with a netting that is supposed to allow air to flow beneath them, very important down here in the deep south. The combination(built in) jacket/safety belt items cost more than I wanted to spend. If you don't have one already I recommend visiting a West Marine store and picking up one of their telephone book sized catalogs. They are a wealth of information and they handle enough different brand names of items to be able to go to that company's website and comparison shop. Also on the web you will get other companies that deal with the same item. You can spend a whole day (I almost did) just shopping the web for what you want. Never heard of NRS before yesterday but they have some very impressive equipment, for example. Happy shopping. < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...
This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...
<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 9:01 PM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom if you meant to send me a pfd link or pic...I'm not seeing it. Believe it or not I'm having a hard time finding pfd with harness that's not auto. So if you know of something link me! Jazz
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 10 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 10:28:10 -0700 From: Thornton Wilkinson <ttwilki@mindspring.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Nostalgia Message-ID: <50CF3AD6-4F8C-44C8-B672-7E21856252F3@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
How do I find out how long I've been subscribed? It seems like forever. Tom M17 Obsessus
On Feb 1, 2016, at 7:38 AM, bownez@juno.com wrote:
Hi Keith,
I go back to the paper newsletter days. I bought my 1976 M17 in 1996 after looking for one for 2 years.
Mr. Bones ____________________________________________________________ Get up to a $500 bonus with a qualifying deposit to an Ally IRA from outside Ally Bank http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/56af6e11b5c26e100ccbst01vuc
------------------------------
Message: 11 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2016 10:42:30 -0700 From: Keith <kdiehl@xmission.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Browsing old Messages... Message-ID: <oybjdh8qrn2afv46ginwfkof.1454348550691@email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Browse to? https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Read down and you'll find a link to the Mailman archives and an ftp link (should open OK in a Web browser) to the the old majordomo archives from last century. ?:)
Sent from my SmartPhone, thus explaining the typos
-------- Original message -------- From: Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> Date:02/01/2016 10:17 AM (GMT-07:00) To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Browsing old Messages...
Can someone tell me how to browse old stuff?? Thanks...
Jazz
------------------------------
Message: 12 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2016 10:45:34 -0700 From: Keith <kdiehl@xmission.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Nostalgia Message-ID: <j1xkunkj5ke4150tupah1sm6.1454348644781@email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
If you can't remember, then it's been a long time. :)?
Sadly, there's no subscription history, all you could do is look through the archives for your early postings.?
Sent from my SmartPhone, thus explaining the typos
-------- Original message -------- From: Thornton Wilkinson Date:02/01/2016 10:28 AM (GMT-07:00) To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Nostalgia
How do I find out how long I've been subscribed?? It seems like forever. Tom M17 Obsessus
------------------------------
Message: 13 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 11:59:01 -0700 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Safety Equip on your boat... Message-ID: < CAGjBOA4SgiGoyXe6R71PW9LWcSaAncNKU2VDHSuQDRPuMVOFCg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
haven't seen much more discussion about flares ... carry them! smoke for daytime and bright for night (some will do both). there is a new electric flare (not smoke) available which means you don't need to buy new flares every few years.
for pyrotechnic flares ALWAYS look at the expiration ESPECIALLY when seeing them on sale. i've found flares for sale that expire in just months or already expired. i always dig through the stock and find the ones with the longest use time.
for PDFs buy one you will wear ALL THE TIME and ALWAYS were when under way and when at the dock alone. me, i'm fine with the auto-inflate type.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
------------------------------
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End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 156, Issue 1 ************************************************
-- *Antonio Martinez* *Middle River Studio* 540-248-3310 (h) 540-414-4782 (c)