I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up. When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING, Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of
years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the
150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************