Thanks Dave, Very useful information! Sam On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 10:42 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
The issue Sam describes occurs in a few of the M15s. Water is getting in from small gaps between the top of the centerboard trunk and the cockpit.
FYI: pennant hole and cockpit drain are one in the same.
The fix is to remove the cabin trunk cover and fiberglass the area (not at all easily done). When glassing care must be taken not to allow resin tho get into the space this the cockpit drain/pennant hole.
One owner put deck plates into the trunk cover so work could be done. (Do a www-search for '3" deck plate' for an example of these). The centerboard cover is entirely for aesthetics. This is a different part and covers the centerboard trunk that comes up through the cabin sole. (Four possible clarity: the M15 has a cover over the trunk, where the M17 does not have a cover.)
As Sam wrote the amount of water that comes in relates to how active the sea state causing water to splash up to the higher reaches of the centerboard trunk.
The water goes into the bilge and as Sam wrote needs to be removed. This area is glassed from the keel ballast. If the 'seal' isn't damaged water in this location will NOT lead to steel rusting in the keel.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 8:57 PM Keith <kdiehl@xmission.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I have an M15 (built 1984, #272) which gets some water in the bilge. The source was a mystery for a long time, but after some close-quarters cell-phone camera work, I found that there were some openings in the join where the center board rope runs and/or cockpit drain exits. I'm pretty sure now that when water is coming back up through the drain in the cockpit, a tiny amount is also entering the bilge. The rate at which it collects seems to vary, I think depending on sailing conditions. Now that I know about it, I try to check on and remove the water after sailing trips, but I figure that the boat has survived for ~35 years with this situation, it will probably last a few more. The worst I've ever seen it was after a little over a week and quite a few miles in the Gulf Islands. I pulled maybe 3 liters of water out after that trip. Maybe this year I'll try to stuff some plumber's putty in the gaps, but the join is quite irregular and I'm not sure anything will stick or form a decent seal.
Here is a photo showing the top of the bilge and the join: image.png
And another with the camera a bit lower and closer showing the gap in the join between the cabin and the keel/bilge (top left/port corner). You can see that things got a little hairy with the fiberglass....
image.png
Finally, the the bilge where you can see that some of the exposed bits of ballast have rusted a bit:
image.png
All is not doom and gloom however, I just re-upholstered the cabin cushions and really like how they turned out!
image.png
Sam
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:47 PM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com <mailto:avalonjazz@gmail.com>> wrote:
Interesting Montgomery 15 story totally unrelated to this pivot pin and ballast conversation: At one point in my life a few years ago, I moved to a house where I no longer could keep my 15 on her trailer in the driveway. There was no space. A man I had done some work for had a factory with a huge parking lot in the back, with a gate and security. I called and talked to him, and he kindly let me temporarily store my boat in his lot. I covered her with a plastic tarp in a way that would allow rainwater to roll off. After it was there for about 6 months, and an unusually heavy rainy season, I had an uneasy feeling about my boat, and made a trip to check up on her. The boat had been moved by the man's employees, and my tarp setup was moved in order to roll the trailer to a different spot. It was never put back in place. During all the rain, the tarp laying on the aft end of the boat had formed a waterproof membrane and the cockpit was filled all the way up to about a half inch of spilling through the companionway door. When i saw this, I panicked. I knew that i couldn't pull the plastic up. I knew the only way to empty the cockpit was to slice the plastic and let the water drain into the self bailing cockpit. I couldn't imagine the weight of that water. I climbed up onto the boat to find a place to make a cut. I was so upset, that it hadnt occured to me that the trailer tongue which was up on a block made this a very unstable situation. When I stepped onto the boat, my added weight tipped the scale. The water started to rush aft, and the boat crashed aft end into the parking lot, with an unbelievably powerful force. The boat was bow up at a huge angle, which frightened the heck out of me to see. I had fallen down into the water as well. I got up, got out of the boat and somehow got her back down again. I think I may have just moved forward, I'm not sure anymore because I was so upset. I had just assumed that my prized boat that I took such good care of was going to be smashed, a total loss. I felt devastated. I was on the ground, and walked aft to see the trajedy. Here's the happy ending: Not only was she in one piece, there was not the slightest crack, chip in the gelcoat. Nothing. I kept running my hand on the point of impact. Not the slightest damage could I detect. It landed right on the tip of the aft part of the keel, so I assumed it would be less stout than other parts of the hull. I was wrong. I realized at that moment how strong this boat actually is.The other huge gift from above: not one drop of water ever went below, which would have been a disaster. Now I keep her in the driveway of my current home, under a covered frame, so I don't have to worry again. *Miracles DO happen.*
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 1:56 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com <mailto:conley.alex@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Thanks Jerry- knowing the hump is separate from the keel cavity eliminates > all my worries. Other than sealing a few spider web cracks in the gelcoat > around the pivot pin, I think I'm good to go sailing! > > And Burton, unless I see new water, I'm going to assume the water was from > overzealous spraying as the previous owners grand kids prepared the boat > for sale. Why worry now when you can worry later? Overall amazed at what > good condition this boat is in for 32 years old. > > Now on to more important things, like buying a hiking stick so I can slide > around to keep the boat trimmed to 55% aft- Jerry, your mini-lessons in > naval architecture and how these boats were constructed is invaluable! > > Alex > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:48 AM <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org <mailto:jerry@jerrymontgomery.org>> wrote: > > > The "lump" under the fwd berth is trim ballast and not part of the keel > > ballast, and is put in place and glassed over AFTER the keel ballast is > > installed and glassed over, and is in front of the keel ballast anyway. > > it's well forward because it's for the sake of trim to compensate for > > weight > > in the cockpit. > > > > A problem with small cruisers is that the cockpit is in the back of the > > boat, and the more weight in the cockpit the more the boat trims aft, > > which > > slows it down for a couple of obvious reasons. Sailing dinghies don't > > have > > this problem because the skipper and crew sit in the center of the boat, > > wherever they need to be to trim the boat for best performance. Early in > > my > > boatbuilding experience, I was fortunate to be hired to help Lyle Hess > > make > > the plugs for the original Balboa 20, which he had designed and was his > > first fiberglass boat. It was a learning experience for both of us; I > > learned a tremendous amount about boat building and design, he learned to > > be > > patient with a million stupid questions. We strip planked the hull, and > > as > > it was taking shape I questioned why the after sections were so full. (hi > > volume). his answer was that it needed the buoyancy because of weight in > > the cockpit, to keep the boat from burying the transom. This made sense > > but > > I always questioned it a bit. Later, in my studies, I learned that the > > ideal fore-and-aft center of buoyancy (LCB), in a displacement hull, in > > terms of performance was 54 to 55% aft, considering only the underbody of > > the hull. Any deviation of this slows the boat down. When Lyle was > > designing the M-17 for me I talked him into cleaning up the aft sections > a > > bit and planned to trim the boat as needed using trim ballast. Both the > > Montgomery 15 and 17 have trim ballast, also the Sages. It worked and is > > one of the reasons that the M-17 is faster than a Balboa 20. I eased the > > run aft on the Sages even more, and I'm confident that this is one of the > > reasons that the Sages are faster. The M-15 and the Sages are all dead > on > > 55%. This factor, along with the prismatic coefficient, are two major > > "invisible" reasons for differences in performance. > > > > I wouldn't worry about rust in the trim ballast; it's not going to spread > > into the keel ballast. As Dave says, go sailing. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Burton Lowry > > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 9:43 AM > > To: Lawrence Winiarski ; For and about Montgomery Sailboats > > Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 rusting ballast > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > One comforting thought is that the older Monty boats are fantastic, and > > are > > inexpensive compared to a new Sage due to the fact that certain things on > > them are going to need attention. Thankfully, most of these can be fixed > > with sweat equity and a little money. The good news is that almost none > of > > these items are safety hazard issues, and don't need immediate attention > > especially if we don't need to have a creampuff for a boat. > > > > If you get really frustrated trying to find the source of this water > > intrusion, welcome to the club! With only a Monty 12, I have no > knowledge > > of the specifics of your boat. However, we have chased leaks for many > > years > > on many pocket cruisers. > > > > The obvious suspects are where holes are drilled in the deck and the > > bedding > > has failed, hatch boards, and vents. > > > > However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck > > joint. > > The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the > > joint > > under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was > > resin > > and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all > along > > the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the > bilge. > > > > If you are in an area where there is a significant freeze/thaw cycle it > > can > > be important to take care of these sorts of leaks so that water expansion > > does not do serious damage to the boat. Or, make sure your boat is good > > and > > dry and then get it covered well before the freeze. > > > > Burt > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Apr 16, 2019, at 12:08 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats > > > <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> wrote: > > > > > > H'mm You know, maybe we've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe > the > > > water that causes the rust comes from the inside > > > through other means (condensation etc..) and soaks through the > > polyester > > > resin? > > > > > > In that case, perhaps a coating on the inside (epoxy or paint could be > a > > > good thing) > > > Or a good winter cover.... > > > > > > On Monday, April 15, 2019, 6:48:22 PM PDT, Alex Conley > > > <conley.alex@gmail.com <mailto:conley.alex@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > I ike that answer! And knowing the ballast is in resin helps me feel > > > comfortable with the sail n monitor approach (I’d imagined a sloshing > > mess > > > of rust soup...). > > > > > > Looking again, I can see a bathtub ring where water sat at one point > > ahead > > > of the bulge. What would be the likely paths for water to even get in > > > there > > > under the v birth (other than someone hosing off the interior)? Hull > deck > > > joint looks solid, and it looks like the bulkhead around the bulge > > > separates it from the rest of the bilge... > > > > > > Thanks Dave, for all the shared knowledge, > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 6:31 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com <mailto:scoobscobie@gmail.com>> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> Alex: > > >> > > >> Simple answer is, as the board goes up and down with no problems, GO > > >> SAILING. > > >> > > >> Monitor the situation and if things change then look for options. > > >> > > >> More details - > > >> > > >> You wrote, 'ballast getting lighter'. It is not unless you start > > >> jackhammering it out ;-) > > >> > > >> Look along the joint where the trunk joins the bottom of the keel for > > any > > >> cracks. If any are present this is a possible place where water can > > >> enter. Cleaning and prepping for an epoxy repair of the cracks (again > > if > > >> any) is an option. Share pictures of what you find. The bottom of > the > > >> keel photo you shared shows no immediate concerns. > > >> > > >> There are some pictures here about repairing the > > >> trunk-bottom-of-keel-joint > > >> in this MSOG post - > > >> > > >> http://www.msog.org/how-to/centerboard/cbrepair_johnson.cfm > > >> > > >> ONLY look at the bottom of the keel photos as the in-cabin things, in > my > > >> opinion, don't relate to your situation. > > >> > > >> So when you touching the 'steel hump' you get oil/rust on your hand? > > >> > > >> #4 question - the ballast was poured in a couple of layers to limit > heat > > >> build up as the resin kicked. The hump was then piled up and covered > > >> with > > >> the glass as you see. The ballast was suppose to be saturated with > > >> resin. > > >> Injection of anything will only make problems. At this moment, as > > >> written > > >> above, leave it alone. > > >> > > >> #5 - drill NO holes at this time! > > >> > > >> #6 - look for damage to the keel and any issues around the rotation > pin. > > >> Any weeping rust? (Based on what you wrote there are none.). See > notes > > >> about e looking for cracking along the keel and trunk joint. > > >> > > >> > > >> Did the prior owner talk about the rust? Can you ask him/her about > it? > > >> Is > > >> this new or has the situation been stable for years and years? > > >> > > >> > > >> :: Dave Scobie > > >> :: M6'8" #650 > > >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com <http://sv-swallow.com> > > >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com <http://m17-375.com> > > >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ <http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/> > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:31 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com <mailto:conley.alex@gmail.com>> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I finally opened up the fore peak on my new to me M15 and pulled out > > the > > >>> flotation to look at the hump over the ballast, and found it to be > rust > > >>> stained and oozing some mix of rust, oil and water There is some > rough > > >>> glass roving over the hump, with some rusting ballast pellets tangled > > in > > >> it > > >>> (see photo 1012). The centerboard is not binding, and there are no > > other > > >>> signs of leaks/rust stains etc- the boat is otherwise in amazing > shape. > > >> It > > >>> does look like someone may have reworked the hull/trunk join in the > > >>> past(photo 0999 attached) and pivot pin is not original . > > >>> > > >>> My questions for all of you: > > >>> 1. Given that the board is not binding, how much should I worry about > > >> this? > > >>> Is the rust causing other damage (other than the ballast getting > > lighter > > >>> :)) > > >>> 2. Are there steps that should be done to stabilize the situation? > What > > >> are > > >>> the options? > > >>> 3. Is it critical that it be dealt with before I put her in the water > > (I > > >>> think its been a few years since her last launch)? > > >>> 4. Is the hump and the keel all one big connected space? Are there > > >>> enough > > >>> voids in the fill to inject an oil or other rust preventative? Are > the > > >>> pellets just loose, or in some kind of matrix (now I'm imagining > > cutting > > >>> into the hump and using a magnet on a rod to remove pellets...) > > >>> 5. If one were to drill a drain hole, what is the best location? > > >>> 6. Any guides out there for resealing the hull/centerboard trunk join > > >>> and > > >>> the interior of the trunk? Other areas to look at re water entry to > the > > >>> ballast? > > >>> > > >>> I've heard people mentioning going whole hog and removing the steel > and > > >>> replacing it with lead. Can anyone point me to more info on what is > > >>> involved in doing that for an m15? I tried searching the photo site > but > > >>> came up cold.. > > >>> > > >>> Many thanks for all your thoughts- > > >>> > > >>> Alex Conley > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > >