John: The M17 I steward came to me with the original Reggie Armstrong sails, which were a main with one reef point, and a working jib, which I always thought was about an 80% or 90%. It also came with a 155% genny. All of them were blown out and baggy, but they still worked fine. I'm told Reggie may have had a problem with alcohol, but when he was sober and not in jail, he managed to produce some of the most fantastic performing sails the M boats have known. He had some kind of special knowledge of voodoo, whoodoo or some kind of "doo". Even through they were over 20 years old, in wind strong enough to get whitecaps building, I have seen the boat hop on plane a few times. That would be heeled to about 15 degrees and running like she stole something in the range of 5.8 to 6+ knots.........and the tiller humming. Kinda scares you the first time it happens. Eventually the main ripped out along the luff, so all have since been replaced. I've kept the originals out of the hope that someday I would find a sailmaker interested in matching them to try to rekindle the magic. None of the new sails have ever performed as the RA sails did. IMHO, standard main should have 2 reefs and without a roller furler, jibs should include a storm jib (mine is a sturdy built 60%); working jib in the range of 80% to 110% that should match the main.......and a genny in the range of 150% to 160%. A main and those three headsails will take you anywhere you want to go. I always felt a factor contributing to the magic in the old sails was that the head of the working jib topped out 3 or 4 feet below the masthead, making it look and appear more like a fractional rig.....but that may only be so much hokum and I don't know what I"m talking about. Wouldn't be the first time. h On Oct 6, 2016, at 12:52 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks for this - Jerry's writeup about the M17 on the MSOG site says the 'cruising' jib is normally a 150 and that seems about right for what my 'big' jib is. It's a lotta sailcloth!
I do usually stay conservative with which jib I use. If the likely winds are going to overpower the 150 at the upper end of what's expected (including swirly gusts, sailing on smallish mountain lakes), I go with the small jib.
My 'small' jib cannot, I think, be a 110. The leach at the clew does not overlap the mast. In terms of the J vs. LP measure, I'd need to measure the LP of the small jib and the J - I think there was a thread on what the J of an M17 was quite a while back? In any case, just visually, it really doesn't look like the LP could be 110% of the J. And, the luff is only about 3/4 the length of the jib halyard (does not go to masthead).
So that raises (so to speak ;-) a sail size identification question.
Does actual sail area factor in to the percentage name a sail has? It seems not...
In other words - I could have two jibs with the same LP, and so based on J vs LP they would be the same %, say 120%. But one could have a higher clew and/or a shorter luff and thus would have less sail area.
I get that using the LP is part of addressing this, for jibs with different shapes (clew heights in particular), as indicated here: http://www.sailboat-cruising.com/sail-dimensions.html
Confirmed by this - "The LP defines the sail size in terms of percentage increase beyond the J measurement...," on this page: http://www.secondwindsails.com/measurement.php
So it seems that the % name of a jib comes strictly from the J vs. LP, and so jibs with identical % names (e.g. 130%) could have different sail areas.
Any further illumination appreciated...
And yeah, furling jib...convenience vs. performance (and cost, vs. hank-ons).
cheers, John S.
On 10/05/2016 07:35 AM, Stanley Wheatley wrote:
The small jib probably is an o.e. working jib which I believe is a 110 on an M17. I don't know about M boats but genoas usually are extra cost options. For hank on sails a 150 is pretty typical so that is probably what you have.
With our masthead rigs you will get better performance by reefing the main before reducing sail up front so the advice on the sailbag is sound, at least if you have crew. Single handed you might sacrifice a little performance for the convenience of not having to wrestle with the full genoa in a strong breeze.
Would it be nice to have a sail in between? Of course it would and that is why the deities created roller furling.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 4, 2016, at 4:40 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Speaking of sails...a few questions about M17 suite of sails.
My M17 from 1974 came with the newer main with three reefs, all good there.
I also got the "small" jib, which indicates on its bag that it is best used with the first reef in the main. It's not a full on storm jib. It does work very well with first reef in main. Also works OK with full main when the "big" jib would be overpowered - speaking of which...
And, I got the "big" jib, which on its bag indicates that it is the "cruising" genoa. I assume (but don't know for sure) that it's the 150% "normal" cruising jib for the M17.
First off, is that the "OEM" set of jibs, those two?
Second off, is there something in between those two, either OEM or that anyone has found appropriate from experience?
It's a pretty big gap between the two, in terms of sail area. Seems like an intermediate size would be more versatile for a range of wind conditions than just the rather small or the very big options...? Or maybe I'm missing something basic about the nature of the M17 rig.
Any info/experiences appreciated.
cheers, John S.
On 10/04/2016 12:11 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: Yeah, I was pretty pleased to acquire a newer main with three reefs with the boat. So far I've only used the first reef...not sure I want to be out on the water when the third might be required! Glad to have the option though.
The 'small' jib has the Reggie Armstrong label on it, yes. It is rather stretched, and flappy in the leach, probably the original.
I need to look again at the cruising jib (the big one) as I can't recall what maker was on it if any. I've only used it a few times so far.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com