I can totally believe that an M-15 turtled, and here is at least one way that it could happen. By broaching in heavy wind when broad reaching or running, especially in waves. In a puff the boat can broach and really roll over until the point where the side deck goes under water and really puts on the brakes and causes the boat to roll even more. If the rig goes under the speed of the boat will drive the rig under and the boat will pivot over the rig and can easily end up turtled, at which point it will not be moving and will be in a fairly stable position, upside down. Best thing to do in conditions when this could happen is to reef the main, which would have much more effect than reefing the jib. Reefing the main would make the boat much less likely to broach. Also, a lot of crown in the deck and house reduces the stability when the boat has turtled; a flat deck has the the same effect (stabilty) when the boat has turtled as a flat bottom has when not turtled. This alone is a good reason to use lots of crown in the deck and house, and there are others. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Farrell Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 12:17 PM To: Msog List Subject: Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle I've often wondered if this ever happens. My old m17 #301 has no positive flotation I've ever found, and if imagine if it filled with water it would sink hastily. What surprised me about this story is that the body was able to go from capsize to turtle. From what source could come force sufficient to overpower the resistance of the sails through the water as well as lifting the ballast into the air? Sources I could imagine are distribution of crew weight or maybe that of heavy equipment, rotational momentum, or perhaps a strong current aligned with the direction of boats rotation. If the current actually helped force the boat the rest of the way over, I could see that, maybe combined with weight distribution (almost certainly on the Lee side after 65 degrees of tipping or so) and rotational momentum, overcoming the resistance of the sails through the water, especially heavily reefed. The question remains, how far over has anybody managed to go in an m17? Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
WOW! Thanks for the update. Excellent description. What an awful experience. I’m glad it all turned out well despite the disaster. You must have been totally shocked at how quickly your day went upside down so to speak. Just goes to show that despite our best efforts, anytime one is on the water there is danger. My goodness.
Daniel
On Jun 24, 2015, at 11:22 PM, Robert Hall <bert.hall@bell.net> wrote:
Hello All, Thank you all for your comments, questions and good wishes.I was able to let go of the tiller, but not able to free the sheets as things happened so suddenly and forcefully. I did not fall onto the sail as it was well below the water by the time I freed my feet and swam,yes in a life jacket, to the stern. By that time the boat was completely upside down.Using the OB bracket I managed to boost myself onto the hull and lay alongside the keel to get my breath. Of course the drop keel had retracted into the shoal keel and stayed there till the boat was righted. Strangely while completely turtled the boat was quite level and stable in the water, probably because the sails were acting as a kind of keel. A passing boater stopped to help and I sent him to get members from my club. When the rescuers arrived I stayed on the hull and had these helpers tow me to deeper water and turn the bow of the M-15 towards the direction from which the wind was still blowing hard.One of the rescuers then joined me in the water and we righted the boat in two tries as one would a dinghy.Once right way up we got the sails down, furled in the case of the jib. By this time[one half hour after the incident] cold had set in and I got into a nearby cruiser to get warm and dry..Two people with buckets got some of the water out and my boat was towed to my club where members did a fantastic clean up and bail out job.Fortunately the water was sufficiently deep that even as I drifted awaiting rescue there was no damage to the mast or other standing rigging.That is as full an explanation as I can give,but you may be sure that my memory reflects what happened and I neither need nor want a photographic record. It is 0215 hours and I feel lucky to be able to write this account. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Smith Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 9:53 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle
I cannot imagine an M15 going turtle and staying that way if the sailor has had the presence of mind to let go the tiller and release the main sheet. I've been knocked down in both a 15 and 17, shipping many gallons of water over the combing, yet both boats righted themselves immediately, with me clinging wide-eyed to the opposite combing...
Sailing M boats for 20 years, this is the first time I've heard of an M15 going over and staying that way. I'm sure this sailor is telling it like it is, but geez, this has to be one in a million. tom
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Cliff Vaughan <cliff.vaughan@live.com> wrote:
Well from my experience with beach cats it's the sailor landing in the middle of the sail that pushes it past the point of no return, but we were not there to watch it happen. Until he gives more details of what happen, just keep your hand on that main sheet.
From: picfo@comcast.net Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:52:03 -0700 To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle
I was thinking more in terms of a 110 degree knock-down where the boat just keeps going…
Jim M-17 “Spirit”
On Jun 24, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Cliff Vaughan <cliff.vaughan@live.com> wrote:
With the mast intact, sails up there is more than enough resistance from the water on the sails to keep any small boat from righting herself. If the mast is stuck in the mud it will make even harder to right her.
From: openboatt@gmail.com Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:11:58 -0700 To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Turning Turtle
Interesting. I've never heard of an M15 going and staying turtle. Word to the wise I guess... tom
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Robert Hall <bert.hall@bell.net> wrote:
> Hello All,Unfortunately at 1600 today while sailing alone in blustery > wind on the Ottawa River with a reefed jib and full main I learned the > answer to a question many of us have asked ourselves.” If knocked down, > will the M 15 continue heeling and finally turn turtle?” The > answer “yes”. > In my case when the gust hit there was no time to steer off, cast > > >>> off > sheets or to take any other remedial action.I was in the water . Possibly > had the drop boards been in place the disaster might have been lessened, > but I do not know.Any way over I went with both sails set. Fortunately > fellow boaters arrived within half an hour and two of us righted > the boat > as one would a dinghy,bailed a little and got towed back to our > > >>> club. > Drying out will take a while and the teasing will take even longer to fade. > This 84 year old has come safely through a nasty experience and henceforth > will at least keep the drop boards in place when sailing in gusty weather. > A word to the wise.Cheers . RTH. >