I/m sure it’s not your fault, Jim. And it was not in danger of sinking (although it felt like it). I just didn’t know for a few days whether it was a major issue or not, but I am feeling a lot better about it. I will know more next week when I talk to the contractor. I am sure glad you DID put a bilge pump in the boat, even if it did leak a little bit - I would have been REALLY behind the eight-ball plumbing something in under pressure! I have decided, though, that Montgomerys should not be advertised as having quarter berths: they are more like ‘eighth berths.' And I did assume, since the boat hadn’t been used much, that there might be a few issues needing attention. Remember, even as much as you cared about it, it is still a B.O.A.T (Break Out Another Thousand)
On Apr 2, 2022, at 6:59 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Sounds like you are taking the best plan of action. I feel bad I sold you probably the most prized thing I have ever owned only to have it almost sink in your first splash in the water. I wish I had a chance to put her in the water and sail her a couple of times before selling her as I would be in a better position to say absolutely nothing was wrong with the boat when I sold it. Sorry you are having an issue with the bilge pump, that was one of the last projects I did on the boat. Always fun to crawl back under that berth to tighten bolts and run hoses etc. Attached are a couple of pictures of the floor when I was cleaning her up in 2008. Keep me posted on what you find going forward. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 6:19 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved.
I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem.
Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore.
I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running.
Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops.
On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until I just looked at my pictures. Jim
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 3:05 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jerry. Bob says there’s no wood down there. He also pointed out that the dent looks like the face of a hammer, which I think is right on, but I have no idea who would’ve banged on it. What I did as a troubleshooting measure is to Put a few layers of duct tape over the crack Just to see if that solved the apparent problem. Tomorrow I will find out if the boat is now dry and also if shutting out that egress forces water into some other place. I suppose if somebody did bang on it with a hammer that could’ve cracked the liner but it must have also cracked the upper edge of the center board envelope to allow water in. That boat was so pristine and so well cared for and so beautiful that it’s really hard for me to imagine what could’ve happened to it. And I watched it get hauled both times and nobody dropped it. Well, it seems like it has everybody baffled…
Mary
On Apr 2, 2022, at 2:20 PM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
I definately agree with Hen ry- "I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry". And, as I stated before, find and fix the place where the water is getting in first.
If it was one of my boats, there would not be any wood down there. Can't say about Eeg's work.
________________________________ From: Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:58 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge
FWIW my boat also had a small crack in the cabin floor pan right at the junction of the V-berth bulkhead from which water would seep. Turned out this was rain water/bilge water that had accumulated in the small gap between the cabin floor (liner) and the actual hull. My fix was to put a 3" inspection port in the floor centered forward right at the V-berth bulkhead. This allowed me to sponge out the remaining water and let it thoroughly dry.
I would not seal up your floor until I was certain that it was dry
Henry Monita
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 1:45 PM Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
The guy who actually did the work on the bottom paint stopped by the marina today and he told us that after they replaced the pin, They covered it with three layers of glass cloth and resin so it’s hard to imagine water coming in that way. What it would be really helpful to have is a drawing that shows a cross-section of the entire keel/trunk/bilge from a fore and aft direction, As well as athwartship. I’m particularly interested in knowing where there might be wood. Given the way the pin was replaced, it’s really hard to Fathom where the water might be getting in and how it is getting past the ballast and the resin. I did Jerry’s tap test and everything sounds like it should. My plan at this point is to plug the crack with boat life right now Just to confirm that that is the problem. If it stops the water accumulation, then I will know what the problem is. It can be removed when I haul to fix. My fiberglass guy will be back in 10 days and I will have him take a look at it and come up with a plan at that point. If I can continue to use the boat until he is ready to fix it, that would be a bonus.
So Jerry, any construction-drawings that you might have that would help my fiberglass guy and myself trace the water path, that would be great. And hopefully we can also get them from Barb since he built this actual boat. And thanks Jim for all the help Mary
> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: > Hey Jerry, > > I am the prior owner. I met you and you saw the boat in Havasu one year, it > has a green hull if you remember. The boat has been in SoCal it's entire > life until Mary purchased her in November last year. She is in WA. The boat > has never had bottom paint but for her use she had a barrier coat and > bottom paint applied which included removing the centerboard and painting > that as well. I purchased the boat in 2008. did 3 weeks in the San Juans in > 2009, several trips to Catalina and tons of sailing from San Diego to > Ventura and have never experienced any leakes. She has been on the hard for > around 7 years and last year was trailered to Pacific for some trailer > upgrades then down to my house in Temecula where she has been for a year. > Because of my many years of use I am sure any manufacturing issues would > have come up during my ownership so I am thinking something was damaged > either at Pacific or at Mary's yard. I don't think we will ever know > exactly what happened. > So from what you are saying she needs to pull the boat, put water inside > the cabin and hopefully see where it exits on the outside correct? This > would have been a lot easier to find without the new bottom paint applied. > Thanks for your input, Mary, myself and others seeing our postings are at a > loss for what really happened. > Jim > > On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 8:09 AM jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote: > >> Mary- Could you send me a photo of the depression please? I'm curious. >> I'm at jmbn1@outlook.com. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Jerry >> >> ________________________________ >> From: mariellec--- via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:33 AM >> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >> Cc: mariellec@yahoo.com <mariellec@yahoo.com> >> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Water Leaking in Bilge >> >> Well, I posted about this last night but I don't see my post showing up, >> so I will try again. I found the leak that Jim described (I bought his >> boat). About one inch aft of the bulkhead that supports the aft end of the >> v-berth, on the cabin sole, right in the center, is a small round >> depression in the fiberglass about the size of a quarter. From looking at >> the boat drawings, it looks like it is right above the pivot pin. There is >> a crack about 1" long across that small round area and I can watch water >> weeping slowly out of that crack. If I could figure out a way to post a >> photo, I would do that but there does not seem to be a photo option here - >> I can email one to anyone who asks. I have posted on the facebook page as >> well. The cabin sole was covered by a small carpet when I bought the boat >> and put it in the yard for the bottom paint job, so I don't know if the >> crack was there before the bottom job. Can I fix this in the water with >> something like marine tex? If I haul it on the trailer, can I fix it from >> above with real epoxy? Or do I need to get under the boat and fix it from >> the inside of the centerboard trunk? And, what could hav caused this? I >> am not sure of the purpose or cause of that little round depression in the >> glass.
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