Well, I’m glad SOMEONE is getting a kick out of this! I wish I was! My boat’s currently in the yard in Olympia WA.
On Apr 13, 2022, at 10:05 PM, AT&T Account <stanpfa@pacbell.net> wrote:
Mary, Are you an Engineer? I'm getting a kick out of your articulate descriptions and questions about how stuff is glued together. What part of the world is your boat?Stan On Wednesday, April 13, 2022, 09:56:27 PM PDT, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, Bob, to answer your question, I watched the boat get lifted off the trailer, launched and hauled at the local yard. No dropping happened. People keep asking me if the problem could have developed from sitting on a trailer for such a long time. That seems unlikely to me, but what do I know?
And finally, to your question about whether the board is pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk... I am not sure how I could know that. When I was in the yard today, I personally let the board down from the cockpit and it came down quite easily…if it is was wedged in the truck it would not have done that...
On Apr 13, 2022, at 9:38 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob - thanks for the thoughts. First, to clarify, bad wording on my part…there was no drill involved.
Jim had told me about the pin backing out in 2009, and it was glassed in when I got the boat. As he said, it did not leak.
Last month when they did the bottom paint, they used a small grinder to take off the glass Jim had added and tapped out the pin (NO DRILLING). No water gushed out when they pulled the pin before because the boat had been in Jim’s driveway in Temecula for several years and the only water that had gotten near the boat was on the freeway heading north to Olympia in November. The centerboard came down very easily….they did the barrier coat and the bottom paint and they put the board back in and the pin and then glassed it over. They glassed it in because I had told them about Jim’s experience with the caulk failing. I don’t think that they used caulk at all.
Then they painted over the glass and launched the boat. They did a nice job. They said they did not even have to enter the cabin (where the crack was in the liner) because to lower the centerboard, they just cut the knot and lowered it onto a cushion on the ground.
I did not discover the leak as soon as we launched because it was under the carpet in the cabin and my hunch is that it took a while to work its way up the voids, by which time I had left the boat. I had several other things I needed to tend to in the next two days and it was day three before I got back to the boat to bend on sails, etc.
The people who have looked at the crack on the liner in person are baffled. All three feel that a hammer strike would have a lot more crazing and shatter lines, not one clean crack.
I watched him remove the pin today - he used a very small grinder-like tool us enough to reveal the head of the pin under the three layers of glass they had applied. Then he tapped the pin out using a hammer and screwdriver. The screwdriver stayed in the hole replacing the pin until he and I lifted the weight of the CB enough for him to pull out the screwdriver and lower the board. I am sure that this is exactly what they did before, although it was easier to find the pin because it was not painted over.
We looked up into the centerboard envelope and nothing obvious jumped out at us. He will see if his endoscope can fit in there to look. He was thinking it might make sense to use a hole saw to open up the liner around the crack and see if there is a crack in the top of the trunk right below. He’s also worried about getting into some very expensive repairs because he is not sure exactly how the hull in that area is put together.
So, here are some specific questions because I want to make sure I completely understand your directions...
1. The two sides of the centerboard trunk…do they come out of the mold - like as part of the hull - in that form? Or are they layed up separately and then tabbed in? 2. When you say "Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel” do you mean the ‘keel’ forward of the CB envelope? On each side of the CB trunk? Or just wherever the lowest point of the entire keel/CB trunk/bilge area is?
3. When you say "The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground” do you mean the seam at the top of the CB envelope where it comes into contact with the liner? And when you say “both areas”, what does that refer to - both sides of the inside of the trunk? or ???
4. Not sure what should be happening for ‘about 20 minutes’ - grinding???
5. It sounds like you don’t feel that he needs to do anything to rectify the delamination on the sides of the CB envelope…it is enough just to make sure it is sealed up?
And YES, we will glass up those 3/8” holes
Thanks for all the help!
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:24 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Did I mention to glass up those two 3/8 holes you drilled…. LOL… YEAH. DO That Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 7:22 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well. Don’t flood the boat. Glad you pulled the boat but wondering if water gushed out before when your bottom crew pulled the board by first removing the pin….l And why would they FIBERGLASS a pin that wasn’t glassed for 20 years..? Did they hammer on the floor before or after..? Making that crack.
Now that the boat is up on Jack stands here’s a permanent fix.
1. Let’s assume water got in recently and thru one of two ways. A. The pin Boss is solid glass, and completely isolated from the water except for the ends (both sides) and held in place with caulking. It slides with force using a punch. If the crew damaged the pin boss by pounding, drilling or hammering the pin area they might have breached the watertight integrity and after looking around hastily decided to FIBERGLASS THE Pin in place. I assume they didn’t use caulk and hammering the pin sideways decided to place a square of glass over the ends to keep it in.
2. So I assume the centerboard trunk to bottom of hull is cracked. Water got inside and Started to run out when you pulled the boat. We can’t figure out after 20 years that this Bote had no issues but here’s how to fix it permanently. A. Drill Two 3/8 holes vertically on the very bottom of the keel and go up about 1 inch with the drill. Water will drain and let it stop drainlng. The seam on the trunk Bote bottom interface will have both areas ground using a grinder, mask and fan to blow crap away from your lungs. All the way around the perimeter. About 20 minutes. Clean with Acetona. On a big piece of cardboard lay out (dry) 1.5 inch wide strips of 7 ounce cloth. Wet out the glass with hot resin and using a brush spread the resin, no bubbles. Lift up the strips and using your hand lay the wet, catalyzed pieces over the seam. Let it dry. Run the board up and down. Use left over cloth to leakproof the pin. (2 inch square). Now the entire bottom is sealed. Back in the water. After checking on day 3 for dry floor, just fill the crack with white caulk and use a squeegee. Go sailing. You can call me if you need anything 949-307-5699 Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 13, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mary.. you said drilled out the pin. What does that mean. .? The Pin should tap sideways (after opening up that patch you said they installed on each side) Also, if the original pin was tapped out to remove the board for bottom paint, why fiberglass it to reinstall it. ?
Also was the boat dropped and wondering is the board pushing on the pin boss or cracking inside the trunk. Then some clown hammered that crack open and water intruded thru the damaged area. Bob
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote:
And, if anyone has any photos that might help the shipwright understand how the keel of a year 2000 Montgomery is put together - or any stories about successful repairs of similar issues - it would be very helpful...
>> On Apr 13, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Mary Campbell <sailmaryc@gmail.com> wrote: > > Well, the boat has been hauled and we have information on the mystery leak that was coming into the cabin sole through a crack right above the pivot pin. > > We pulled the boat, and drilled out the pin and water started running from each side of the tube. Tapping along each side of the centerboard trunk, there is clearly some delamination that has happened on both sides. We stood there and watched the water coming out until the hail and sleet literally drove us back into our vehicles. There are no cracks or issues visible on the outside of the keel and when the bottom paint was applied the hull was in pristine condition. We could see no crack at the top of the centerboard trunk looking up from the bottom. The only point of ingress we can imagine are the ends of the pins. When the boat was bottom painted, they put cloth and epoxy over both ends of the pin and sanded and painted over that. So maybe it come in where the pin passed into the trunk on the inside? Still not clear. > > I am formulating some questions for Bob to help the shipwright figure out how to address this. He’s not sure that flooding the boat will offer any information. He is considering opening up the liner inside the cabin to understand more about how the boat is put together...My boat does not have the old steel punchings... > > > >>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:03 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >> I'll chime in as the owner of an older M17 (#38, 1974) that had leakage into the keel (but not into the interior of the boat). >> >> I am with Jerry on this - you really want to know where the water first gets into the boat, and seal it up there. That will be somewhere on the outside of the boat. One way to do that, as described, is to have the boat on the hard, put a bunch of water inside, and watch for where it oozes out. >> >> Reason being, if you only seal up where it finally reaches the inside, you may be trapping water somewhere between where it enters the hull/keel and where you see it reach the interior at that small crack. >> >> Where you see it oozing into the cabin floor may not be where it is actually coming thru the hull and/or keel. >> The location you & Jim identify is directly above the keel, and a ways back from the front of the keel, as I read it. Looking at the M17 line drawings, it is an open question if it is still above solid keel, or possibly above the very forward part of the CB trunk. >> >> In any case it's not like most of the rest of the hull where there is just the fiberglass hull layup between outside and inside. >> >> From where your crack is, the water would at least have to come from the top of the CB trunk, IF the crack is above the trunk. >> If the crack is actually forward of the CB trunk, above the keel, then it would more likely be coming thru from the keel. >> >> I don't know how thick the top of the CB trunk is, or if it's solid all the way to the inside surface of the hull, or if there's a fore-aft seam there that might have opened up. >> >> Jerry and/or Bob, can you describe that part of the boat? How is the CB trunk made and installed, does it have a seam at top? >> >> When I acquired it, my M17 had a leak into the keel, which I only discovered when I saw a damp spot below the aft end of keel (where the stop bolt is) on the driveway some days after hauling my boat out. That was the water that had gotten into the keel, slowly slowly dripping out. >> It never came into the interior of the boat. >> There is normally no path for water that gets in the keel to get into the interior of the boat. Or for water in the CB trunk to get in either, besides the hole for the CB pennant. >> >> So my guess would be one of: >> >> 1) you've got water getting in your keel, and somehow a crack opened up between keel and interior and it's oozing in. >> >> 2) somehow a crack opened up between top of CB trunk and interior and it's oozing in. >> >> It could be a crack in the CB trunk letting water into the keel which then comes thru the crack into the interior - still basically same as 1) above, water getting in keel then thru crack to interior. >> >> How that crack occurred remains a mystery, but sealing it only on the inside I would consider a temporary/short-term response only. If at all possible, find out where on the outside of the boat water first gets in. >> >> Final suggestion - don't use duct tape (for anything, ever, except ducts). It makes a mess if left in place for long and it won't seal out water at any pressure from oozing in. Maybe for a few hours, or days if you get lucky, but then it will fail and you'll still have the duct tape sticky-mess to clean up before anything else will stick. >> >> >> Jim, I can empathize a bit with how you feel...when I sold my Ensenada 20, years ago, it was leak-free up to end of season and hauling out. When the new owners first splashed it many months later, there was an immediate oozing at the CB pivot bolt. But on that boat, it's all exposed on the interior, the source of leak was obvious, and the repair location reasonably accessible. This one is a bit trickier to diagnose... >> >> cheers, >> John >> >> >> On 4/2/22 18:18, Mary Campbell wrote: >>> So glad you have those photos!!!! I am wondering that myself. I was not there when they dropped it, when I got there it was already out and they were prepping for barrier coat. If it was stuck it would have made more sense to wiggle from the bottom, but maybe they sent someone up to encourage it and he did not think to use a block between the hammer and the fiberglass. I will have to wait until the guy I contracted with comes back from vacation next week to have him look at it. He will remember because if two people were working on it and let's say he was down below and sent the other guy up to work from that end, he would remember doing that. I am not sure who actually took it out. I have shown it to the guy who painted the boat and he did not offer any explanation so maybe he was not involved. >>> I did not take the carpet out until Monday when I stepped in and it was wet. And I didn’t notice the crack then because I was paying a lot more attention to the full bilge. The bilge had filled and soaked the carpet so I assumed the water was coming from the back and moving FORWARD. I was focussed BEHIND the hauspipe trying to figure out how the bilge was filling. It was confusing because there were a couple of the lapstrake channels that had water in them so that made me crawl all through the lazarettes. So I had moved everything out of the stern and onto the salon. It took me a while to figure out that the bilge pump was leaking - that allowed me to stop worrying about the hull, and move things back…and then I noticed the crack in the floor and the trickle. I did tighten the clamps on the pump and we will see if that solves THAT problem. >>> Anyway, my intuition tells me that we are on the road to recovery. With the duct tape in place, as long as it holds I am no longer feeling like I need to check the bilge morning and night (but I will until I am sure that the leak has stopped.) When the guy gets back from vacation, I will have him look at it and see if seems to know anything about how the problem started and how to repair it. I have a shipwright (not the same guy) coming to look at it on Monday as well. I understand more about the boat having been forced to caress every inch of the hull that I could reach. I have my boat list of things I need to do to get her ready to sail. The cushion covers are washed and I feel ok about putting them in now that I won’t need to move things around to check for leaks anymore. >>> I still have to figure out where to go from the duct tape. Jerry suggests that I should not seal up the top without figuring out how the water is getting in. Bob seemed to think that I could seal on the top and not make things worse. I am wondering about leaving things like they are for the next couple of months and dealing with it when I haul at the end of summer. I wish I could dissect an M-17 keel/CB trunk/bilge to get a clue about where the water might be running. >>> Anyway, that is more drama than I needed this week! I really appreciate all of your help rallying the troops. >>>> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Jim Ellsworth <jellsworth603@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Ok, this is really strange. I went back to all of my photos of Grace (and >>>> there are a lot!). When I first got her I stripped all of the cushions and >>>> anything else in the boat out to do some deep cleaning and in those >>>> pictures I have a couple of the salon floor. Not great quality but from >>>> what I can see there was no circle or indentation in the floor as appears >>>> now. I can say I know of nothing heavy that ever dropped on the floor and >>>> once I ordered that custom rug it has been in the boat 100% of the time >>>> except for cleaning. Check the rug to see if there is any sign of that >>>> indentation or small tear etc. Also when I packed the boat I purposely put >>>> the new boat cover on the floor in case anything fell off the v-berth in >>>> transit. Did you observe them dropping the centerboard? I am wondering if >>>> they punched the pin out and the board was stuck and they tried to break it >>>> loose by pounding on the salon floor? Hopefully not but it is really >>>> strange because I thought it was just part of the mold for the floor until >>>> I just looked at my pictures. >>>> Jim >>>> >> >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com