On my M-23 "Robin's Nest", the rudder stuck about 9 - 10" below the centerboard trunk - a dangerous situation. The rudder could not be raised because of the boomkin. So I made an entirely new rudder out of a NACA0012 foil shape. I increased the chord and went from a submerged area of about 540 square inches to 720 square inches. Following the wisdom of the late Phil Bolger, I then installed a shaped rudder end plate made from sheet PVC. It is both screwed and epoxied to the flat rudder bottom The rudder was made out of scrap lumber, shaped accurately using a home-made template and then coated with barrier coat. It uses the existing rudder hardware. The rudder has vastly more grip than the original (cool looking) rudder. Rounding up is a rare experience now and the boat has considerably more low speed authority. Rudders with end-plates seem to generate a lot of controversy. I grew weary of the debate and just built one. YMMV Jerry Wolczanski "Robin's Nest" Flag Harbor St. Leonard, MD On Tue, 2019-12-17 at 14:01 -0500, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
Agreed. I sail in VERY tidal waters and, thus, I sometimes sail with both the centerboard and the rudder up. It definitely compromises your ability to sail to windward, but it is still fun. I thought it would feel strange to have the tiller so high, but if you use a flexible tiller extension, you don't even notice it. On my boat, the raised rudder still draws slightly more than the stub keel so you still have to be careful. Someday, I might shorten the rudder a couple of inches so I can run aground on the local sand and mud with impunity.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com
On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 1:31 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudder Question
The nice thing about the slide-up is that you get the same helm feel/balance and still quite good maneuvering ability even when it's slid all the way up. With the sliding rudder all the way up on an M17, rudder draws about the same depth as the bottom of the stub keel with CB up. A few times I have done some maneuvering in shallow waters that way, under sail, and she's still fairly nimble.
cheers, John
On 12/17/19 9:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
I have an IdaRudder on my Monty 17. I bought the blue water version which has a wider chord than the lake only version. Heavier but stronger built. Yes, the leverage you have to deal with is as you said. I chose to lower the rudder and feather the main somewhat when cruising in shoal water. That way the rudder will tend to pop up only when the water is too thin and otherwise says down for better grip on the water. It is a matter of playing with what you have and being attuned to your boat at all times.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 11:12 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have a two gudgeon with a tip up rudder. Works fine. If I was going to sail my 15 to Hawaii and be prepared for lying to with sea anchor and subsequent sternway, I’d beef it up. Not going to do that. I bought an Ida Sailor after market tip up for and old( pre motorsailor) MAC 25. Resulted in fantastic windward performance. The company has been bought up by another but maintains stock. Also makes windows. They make Monte aftermarket rudders too. The essential thing about tip ups is that you NEVER sail in high winds with the blade tipped up to shoal position, too much lever arm. If you had five gudgeon/ pintles you could still rip it out of the stern. If you didn’t shatter your tiller first. Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2019, at 7:42 PM, John Schinnerer < john@eco-living.net>
wrote:
I think you have the OEM gudgeons for that vintage. What number is your
hull?
My '74 #38 "Pajarita" came with two gudgeons. There was no sign of them
ever having been moved or of others having been in different locations. From a look at some photos when I first got her, location was about identical to yours. Also same as Gerry L's gudgeon location.
Mine also came with what I assume is the OEM rudder of that vintage,
which is a two pintle fixed (no slide up, no kick up) rudder with a slight counterbalance leading edge under the keel, forward of the pivot axis.
This is actually a more nimble rudder design - faster turning for less
effort. But no sliding up for shallow spots/beaching/etc.
I knew I would have some use for a shallower draft option.
So, I bought a used, later model OEM 3-gudgeon slide up rudder from a
list member, Jerry found an OEM gudgeon in his parts boxes and sold me that, and I remounted three gudgeons to fit the slide up rudder locations.
I've also remounted the pintles on the original OEM counterbalance
rudder to match the new top and bottom gudgeon locations, so I can use either rudder.
If you want the Jerry-designed slide-up you'll need to reconfigure your
stern for that. Others here have recommended a place called J-O Woodworks who can make you an OEM style wood rudder for slide-up.
If you spring for the Ruddercraft kick-up, I don't know, but others here
have them & could tell you if the pintle location is custom per order (e.g. keep your gudgeons where they are) or some stock position that you might have to remount for.
If you happen to see this Jerry - I'm curious if you remember how many
of the counterbalanced rudder 2-pintle M17s you made, way back in the olden days.
cheers, John
On 12/16/19 1:03 PM, David Bailey via montgomery_boats wrote: So,,,, every picture I’ve seen of the stock rudders has the 3 pintle
strap configuration. My stern is set up for 2. The stock rudder I bought also has three. Now I’m asking myself, should I relocate two on my rudder, or modify my stern for 3. I have to assume that if my M17 is original, there is a reason for having 3 on the newer generation?
Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com