Something else I've thought of with Idasailor..... http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php? cPath=45&products_id=466 Marketing claims aside, as Jerry has pointed out, the M17 rudder is an important component of the boat that allows upwind performance. It is more than just a steering device. It's a lifting foil. Not sure if their kickup rudder has this same quality. If so, great. If not, perhaps they should offer JM a consulting fee to work with them to make it so? If you have not read this from the msog.org........I assume it is as true today as it was a few years ago when Jerry wrote it.... "A 17 with the mast raked properly loads the rudder to the point where it is an important lifting plane, thus the depth and aspect ratio, which are extreme compared to your average short, fat cruising boat. Believe you me, I've taken a lot of static over the years from owners that have taken off their rudders on rocks, stumps, sea monsters, etc, but the depth and the rake of the rudder is one of the keys to the boat's performance. The 17 is really an outstanding boat upwind for its length and the foils are one of the major reasons. I started racing the 17 soon after we started building it, and did well from the start, and when I went to the race in Leach Lake, MN, which at that time was touted as the largest trailerable boat race in the world, in the late 70's, I was sailing on a 23 at the invitation of (?) I can't remember his name, but I can remember his face and that he was a great guy. There were several 17's in the race and I was greatly disturbed by the fact that that they all thought that the 17 was a strong, seaworthy boat, but was a little on the slow side. This was a definate attack on my ego. I picked out the 17 with the best suit of sails and spent a couple of hours tuning his mast. The next day (the second day of racing, of three, I think) he blew away his competition in his class (a "horizon job"). It's all in the relationship between the sailplan and the foils. There is probably an appropriate analogy in low- speed airplanes. If your wing (which bears most of the load) was necessarily short and of low aspect, for structural or whatever reasons, but the aft wing (aileron?) could be of high aspect, the designer could probably, to advantage, distribute the weight so that the plane would fly level when the tail wing was angled up a little, to keep the plane flying level. The important thing is that while keeping the plane flying level it would also contribute to the lift of the plane. Does this make sense to you, an airplane guy? On a boat, I look at this as "loading up the rudder", and when things are just right it makes a remarkable difference in the upwind performance of the boat. Upwind, at a high angle of incidence, a highly raked mast, so that the leach and the luff of the sail are close to equal in terms of plus and minus angles, has more lift. Optimum tuning comes when the properly raked mast creates a light and controllable weather helm on the rudder, changing the rudder from a mere controling surface to a lifting surface. Pointing higher and going faster, as they say."