Hi all, just returned from some great sailing on Humboldt Bay. Will post a few pics on the trailersailor forum when I get a minute. Daniel: Sorry you couldn't bring Kestrel up to join us. I was a blast. Quick wave as I trailered down 101 past Santa Rosa today. My 2 cents on the the pin for the forestay is this: When considering risk in general, I look at two factors: A) How likely, on a numerical scale, is a bad outcome (pin comes out, forestay swings loose, mast comes crashing down) likely to happen? B) IF that bad outcome were to happen, how severe, on the same numerical scale, would the outcome be? I you go with a 1-5 rating, I would put the first item at a "1" or "2", meaning not too likely under reasonable conditions; especially with the sensible precautions Judy B. suggests. However, for (B), I would peg at a "5", meaning not too cool. Especially in rough conditions. Mast could maybe rip off the tabernacle, worse, fall upon and severly injure skipper or crew. (B) alone--no matter how low you rate (A), is sufficient for me to forego any thoughts of deviating from the clevis pin and split ring approach. Just sayin' By the way, and not to veer too far from the subject, but not having a permanently mounted transom / swim ladder, in my estimation, would have similar A/B ratings. Actually maybe (A) would be three, depending upon how "flat" (or not) you like to sail. If I forgot to put up my vang, maybe I would be very likely to regret it and have to deal with more twist than I would prefer. (a 4 or 5) but the severity, except for maybe racing, would be "1" (probably not going to capsize, crash, or anyone get injured due to not having it rigged). Don't take risks when the stakes applicable to safety are high. fair winds, Neil '85 M15 "TwoCan", Northern Cal. On 8/31/2014 3:33 PM, montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: A Lesson (Judith Blumhorst, DC) 2. Re: A Lesson (Conbert Benneck) 3. Re: A Lesson (Mitch Carnes) 4. Forestay attachment (Thomas Buzzi) 5. Re: Forestay attachment (jerry montgomery) 6. Re: A Lesson (Tom Jenkins) 7. Re: (no subject) (Michael Murphy) 8. : M-15 forestay device (stevetrapp)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 11:39:22 -0700 From: "Judith Blumhorst, DC" <drjudyb@blumhorst.com> To: David Grah <d_b_grah@yahoo.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: A Lesson Message-ID: <1409510362.67843.YahooMailNeo@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Dave,
I have used a solid body push pin at the bottome of the forestay for decades, but I "mouse" it with thin line used as a lanyard to hold the pin on the toggle. The mousing gets wrapped with rigging tape. To remove the pin, I have to cut through the rigging tape with my knife to undo the mousing/lashing.
So far, so good.....
Judy
Judy Blumhorst Hyde Sails of Northern California www.judybsails.com judy@judybsails.com
cell: 925.208.1692 fax: 925.820.2327 skype: judith.blumhorst www.HydeSails.com
________________________________ From: David Grah via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: For and About Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2014 2:18 PM Subject: M_Boats: A Lesson
I had a couple nice overnight trips out of the area this summer on our Montgomery 15. The first was with my son from Santa Barbara to Santa Cruz Island for a couple of nights and the second was in the California Delta and the San Francisco Bay. I have posted short videos of both trips to the Facebook Montgomery page. I had the same lesson taught to me on each of these trips - one that I admit I first learned from this group.
I leave the shrouds always connected on the boat so that to put up the mast you just have to push it up and connect the fore stay. For most of the five years I have had the boat I have connected the fore stay with a simple push pin. What I mean by a push pin is a pin with a button at one end that, when pushed, allows a little ball to retract into the pin so it can be inserted or removed. The pin makes it really easy to connect the fore stay which I have liked because my method involves me just holding the mast up with tension on the fore stay while I connect the fore stay to the thingy on the bow. The process of getting up the mast goes very quickly this way.
I think it was Dave Scobie responding to another member of the group that said a push pin was not a secure way to connect the fore stay on a Montgomery 15, but maybe he was talking about all of our boats. I often have thought about Dave's advice but have always found the push pin has worked great so, although appreciated the advice (the lesson), never changed to a different method of attaching the fore stay. Until recently.
After our first night on Santa Cruz island we motored up the coast to Painted Cave, looked around there, started back, and stopped to snorkel for a while. After the stop, the wind picked up so we had a nice sail back down the coast with the west wind mostly behind us as we moved east. After an hour or so the wind picked up nicely into the mid or higher teens of miles per hour. With the wind behind the boat, the fore stay was essentially unloaded most of the time and a little slack. With the wind picking up the jib would flap from time to time and the waves also got bigger. The combination of the flapping jib and the waves would shake the rig around a bit from time to time.
At one point I was sorry to see the bottom of the fore stay had disconnected from the bow. I had a bit of a tense time replacing the push pin with a spare. The two legs of the thingy at the bottom of fore stay that the pin goes through had been spread a tiny bit so I squeezed them back together and put the spare pin in without having the rig come down. The next day I found the old pin laying against the toe rail.
I remembered the "lesson" from this group about the push pin for the fore stay, but figured from the way the legs of the thingy at the bottom of the fore stay were spread, that the problem was probably that I hadn't put the pin all the way through when I had assembled the boat the day before. I decided to think about it some more, but the push pin still seemed like it should work fine.
As could be expected, our first day on the San Francisco Bay had good wind, in the afternoon as we headed east in Racoon Straight and started to enter Ayala Cove for the night, the wind, that was mostly behind us, got switchy and gusty as we got in the wind shadow of Angel Island. The fore stay was slack, there were waves, and the rig was gotten shook (shaken?) around. Guess what happened? Sure enough, the fore stay disconnected from the thingy on the bow again. The rig was nice enough not come down this time too and I replaced the now-missing push pin with a regular pin with a safety clip.
They say fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me but it has taken me three times to learn that a push pin is not a good way to connect the fore stay to the bow on a Montgomery 15!
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 13:51:57 -0500 From: Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: "Judith Blumhorst, DC" <drjudyb@blumhorst.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: A Lesson Message-ID: <54036ECD.70401@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 31-Aug-14 1:39 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi Judy,
I like your "belt & suspenders" approach. Never give MURPHY a chance to do his dirty work.
I used a ball clevis pin for all the years I owned the M15 and never had a problem; but it's better to be safe than sorry.
Connie, the boat-less sailor in Dallas.
Hi Dave,
I have used a solid body push pin at the bottome of the forestay for decades, but I "mouse" it with thin line used as a lanyard to hold the pin on the toggle. The mousing gets wrapped with rigging tape. To remove the pin, I have to cut through the rigging tape with my knife to undo the mousing/lashing.
So far, so good.....
Judy
Judy Blumhorst Hyde Sails of Northern California www.judybsails.com judy@judybsails.com
cell: 925.208.1692 fax: 925.820.2327 skype: judith.blumhorst www.HydeSails.com
________________________________ From: David Grah via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: For and About Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2014 2:18 PM Subject: M_Boats: A Lesson
I had a couple nice overnight trips out of the area this summer on our Montgomery 15. The first was with my son from Santa Barbara to Santa Cruz Island for a couple of nights and the second was in the California Delta and the San Francisco Bay. I have posted short videos of both trips to the Facebook Montgomery page. I had the same lesson taught to me on each of these trips - one that I admit I first learned from this group.
I leave the shrouds always connected on the boat so that to put up the mast you just have to push it up and connect the fore stay. For most of the five years I have had the boat I have connected the fore stay with a simple push pin. What I mean by a push pin is a pin with a button at one end that, when pushed, allows a little ball to retract into the pin so it can be inserted or removed. The pin makes it really easy to connect the fore stay which I have liked because my method involves me just holding the mast up with tension on the fore stay while I connect the fore stay to the thingy on the bow. The process of getting up the mast goes very quickly this way.
I think it was Dave Scobie responding to another member of the group that said a push pin was not a secure way to connect the fore stay on a Montgomery 15, but maybe he was talking about all of our boats. I often have thought about Dave's advice but have always found the push pin has worked great so, although appreciated the advice (the lesson), never changed to a different method of attaching the fore stay. Until recently.
After our first night on Santa Cruz island we motored up the coast to Painted Cave, looked around there, started back, and stopped to snorkel for a while. After the stop, the wind picked up so we had a nice sail back down the coast with the west wind mostly behind us as we moved east. After an hour or so the wind picked up nicely into the mid or higher teens of miles per hour. With the wind behind the boat, the fore stay was essentially unloaded most of the time and a little slack. With the wind picking up the jib would flap from time to time and the waves also got bigger. The combination of the flapping jib and the waves would shake the rig around a bit from time to time.
At one point I was sorry to see the bottom of the fore stay had disconnected from the bow. I had a bit of a tense time replacing the push pin with a spare. The two legs of the thingy at the bottom of fore stay that the pin goes through had been spread a tiny bit so I squeezed them back together and put the spare pin in without having the rig come down. The next day I found the old pin laying against the toe rail.
I remembered the "lesson" from this group about the push pin for the fore stay, but figured from the way the legs of the thingy at the bottom of the fore stay were spread, that the problem was probably that I hadn't put the pin all the way through when I had assembled the boat the day before. I decided to think about it some more, but the push pin still seemed like it should work fine.
As could be expected, our first day on the San Francisco Bay had good wind, in the afternoon as we headed east in Racoon Straight and started to enter Ayala Cove for the night, the wind, that was mostly behind us, got switchy and gusty as we got in the wind shadow of Angel Island. The fore stay was slack, there were waves, and the rig was gotten shook (shaken?) around. Guess what happened? Sure enough, the fore stay disconnected from the thingy on the bow again. The rig was nice enough not come down this time too and I replaced the now-missing push pin with a regular pin with a safety clip.
They say fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me but it has taken me three times to learn that a push pin is not a good way to connect the fore stay to the bow on a Montgomery 15!
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 12:22:24 -0700 From: Mitch Carnes <mitch_carnes@sbcglobal.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, "Judith Blumhorst, DC" <drjudyb@blumhorst.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: A Lesson Message-ID: <1409512944.23068.YahooMailNeo@web181605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I use a Harken "Toggle Pin" which has a spring tension "T" on the end which has served me well for years. The only potential for failure I see is the small pin that holds the Toggle in place, which takes a constant salt water bath on the bow. Mitch
On Sunday, August 31, 2014 11:52 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31-Aug-14 1:39 PM, Judith Blumhorst, DC wrote:
Hi Judy,
I like your "belt & suspenders" approach. Never give MURPHY a chance to do his dirty work.
I used a ball clevis pin for all the years I owned the M15 and never had a problem; but it's better to be safe than sorry.
Connie, the boat-less sailor in Dallas.
Hi Dave,
I have used a solid body push pin at the bottome of the forestay for decades, but I "mouse" it with thin line used as a lanyard to hold the pin on the toggle. The mousing gets wrapped with rigging tape. To remove the pin, I have to cut through the rigging tape with my knife to undo the mousing/lashing.
So far, so good.....
Judy
Judy Blumhorst Hyde Sails of Northern California www.judybsails.com judy@judybsails.com
cell: 925.208.1692 fax: 925.820.2327 skype: judith.blumhorst www.HydeSails.com
________________________________ From: David Grah via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: For and About Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2014 2:18 PM Subject: M_Boats: A Lesson
I had a couple nice overnight trips out of the area this summer on our Montgomery 15. The first was with my son from Santa Barbara to Santa Cruz Island for a couple of nights and the second was in the California Delta and the San Francisco Bay. I have posted short videos of both trips to the Facebook Montgomery page. I had the same lesson taught to me on each of these trips - one that I admit I first learned from this group.
I leave the shrouds always connected on the boat so that to put up the mast you just have to push it up and connect the fore stay. For most of the five years I have had the boat I have connected the fore stay with a simple push pin. What I mean by a push pin is a pin with a button at one end that, when pushed, allows a little ball to retract into the pin so it can be inserted or removed. The pin makes it really easy to connect the fore stay which I have liked because my method involves me just holding the mast up with tension on the fore stay while I connect the fore stay to the thingy on the bow. The process of getting up the mast goes very quickly this way.
I think it was Dave Scobie responding to another member of the group that said a push pin was not a secure way to connect the fore stay on a Montgomery 15, but maybe he was talking about all of our boats. I often have thought about Dave's advice but have always found the push pin has worked great so, although appreciated the advice (the lesson), never changed to a different method of attaching the fore stay. Until recently.
After our first night on Santa Cruz island we motored up the coast to Painted Cave, looked around there, started back, and stopped to snorkel for a while. After the stop, the wind picked up so we had a nice sail back down the coast with the west wind mostly behind us as we moved east. After an hour or so the wind picked up nicely into the mid or higher teens of miles per hour. With the wind behind the boat, the fore stay was essentially unloaded most of the time and a little slack. With the wind picking up the jib would flap from time to time and the waves also got bigger. The combination of the flapping jib and the waves would shake the rig around a bit from time to time.
At one point I was sorry to see the bottom of the fore stay had disconnected from the bow. I had a bit of a tense time replacing the push pin with a spare. The two legs of the thingy at the bottom of fore stay that the pin goes through had been spread a tiny bit so I squeezed them back together and put the spare pin in without having the rig come down. The next day I found the old pin laying against the toe rail.
I remembered the "lesson" from this group about the push pin for the fore stay, but figured from the way the legs of the thingy at the bottom of the fore stay were spread, that the problem was probably that I hadn't put the pin all the way through when I had assembled the boat the day before. I decided to think about it some more, but the push pin still seemed like it should work fine.
As could be expected, our first day on the San Francisco Bay had good wind, in the afternoon as we headed east in Racoon Straight and started to enter Ayala Cove for the night, the wind, that was mostly behind us, got switchy and gusty as we got in the wind shadow of Angel Island. The fore stay was slack, there were waves, and the rig was gotten shook (shaken?) around. Guess what happened? Sure enough, the fore stay disconnected from the thingy on the bow again. The rig was nice enough not come down this time too and I replaced the now-missing push pin with a regular pin with a safety clip.
They say fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me but it has taken me three times to learn that a push pin is not a good way to connect the fore stay to the bow on a Montgomery 15!
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky
Message: 4 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 14:32:07 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Forestay attachment Message-ID: <CA+TbpAVkVr6vyaZcJFBObekynuuFhA0vhODZ4uSTZfOVRmdUug@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I have used a 3 inch snap shackle on the forestay. It is easy to get the opened jaw through the shackle mounted on the stemhead fitting and by closing the jaw I tension the forestay.
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 13:03:53 -0700 From: "jerry montgomery" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Forestay attachment Message-ID: <FC94F28DBD0643FF91D5650A7FF235C5@jerryws10> Content-Type: text/plain; format="flowed"; charset="utf-8"; reply-type="original"
Great idea!
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 12:32 PM Subject: M_Boats: Forestay attachment
I have used a 3 inch snap shackle on the forestay. It is easy to get the opened jaw through the shackle mounted on the stemhead fitting and by closing the jaw I tension the forestay.
-- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 12313 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
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------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 13:08:26 -0700 From: Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> To: "Judith Blumhorst, DC" <drjudyb@blumhorst.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: A Lesson Message-ID: <40AE1D18-5B01-4958-AEBA-9F6375173656@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
I use a quick-release pin on my M17 headstay-furler, and on my Potter 14 headstay and shrouds, and have had no backing-out problem (in the case of the Potter, for 35 years). However, on the Potter I recently discovered that the internal mechanism eventually wears out and keeps them from holding, so I had to replace all three. On new ones, I can?t back them out regardless of how hard I pull and change the stay tennsion. One has to be very careful that the fitting receiving the pin is not slightly oversize to start with, and I?m betting that the hole will wear larger with heavy use. In any case, on the ocean I would use some wraps of duct tape just in from the ball, or some thread with a constrictor knot. Of course, most quick pins have a hold for attaching a lanyard so the pin won?t get lost.
Tom
On Aug 31, 2014, at 11:39 AM, Judith Blumhorst, DC <drjudyb@blumhorst.com> wrote:
Hi Dave,
I have used a solid body push pin at the bottome of the forestay for decades, but I "mouse" it with thin line used as a lanyard to hold the pin on the toggle. The mousing gets wrapped with rigging tape. To remove the pin, I have to cut through the rigging tape with my knife to undo the mousing/lashing.
So far, so good.....
Judy
Judy Blumhorst Hyde Sails of Northern California www.judybsails.com judy@judybsails.com
cell: 925.208.1692 fax: 925.820.2327 skype: judith.blumhorst www.HydeSails.com
________________________________ From: David Grah via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: For and About Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2014 2:18 PM Subject: M_Boats: A Lesson
I had a couple nice overnight trips out of the area this summer on our Montgomery 15. The first was with my son from Santa Barbara to Santa Cruz Island for a couple of nights and the second was in the California Delta and the San Francisco Bay. I have posted short videos of both trips to the Facebook Montgomery page. I had the same lesson taught to me on each of these trips - one that I admit I first learned from this group.
I leave the shrouds always connected on the boat so that to put up the mast you just have to push it up and connect the fore stay. For most of the five years I have had the boat I have connected the fore stay with a simple push pin. What I mean by a push pin is a pin with a button at one end that, when pushed, allows a little ball to retract into the pin so it can be inserted or removed. The pin makes it really easy to connect the fore stay which I have liked because my method involves me just holding the mast up with tension on the fore stay while I connect the fore stay to the thingy on the bow. The process of getting up the mast goes very quickly this way.
I think it was Dave Scobie responding to another member of the group that said a push pin was not a secure way to connect the fore stay on a Montgomery 15, but maybe he was talking about all of our boats. I often have thought about Dave's advice but have always found the push pin has worked great so, although appreciated the advice (the lesson), never changed to a different method of attaching the fore stay. Until recently.
After our first night on Santa Cruz island we motored up the coast to Painted Cave, looked around there, started back, and stopped to snorkel for a while. After the stop, the wind picked up so we had a nice sail back down the coast with the west wind mostly behind us as we moved east. After an hour or so the wind picked up nicely into the mid or higher teens of miles per hour. With the wind behind the boat, the fore stay was essentially unloaded most of the time and a little slack. With the wind picking up the jib would flap from time to time and the waves also got bigger. The combination of the flapping jib and the waves would shake the rig around a bit from time to time.
At one point I was sorry to see the bottom of the fore stay had disconnected from the bow. I had a bit of a tense time replacing the push pin with a spare. The two legs of the thingy at the bottom of fore stay that the pin goes through had been spread a tiny bit so I squeezed them back together and put the spare pin in without having the rig come down. The next day I found the old pin laying against the toe rail.
I remembered the "lesson" from this group about the push pin for the fore stay, but figured from the way the legs of the thingy at the bottom of the fore stay were spread, that the problem was probably that I hadn't put the pin all the way through when I had assembled the boat the day before. I decided to think about it some more, but the push pin still seemed like it should work fine.
As could be expected, our first day on the San Francisco Bay had good wind, in the afternoon as we headed east in Racoon Straight and started to enter Ayala Cove for the night, the wind, that was mostly behind us, got switchy and gusty as we got in the wind shadow of Angel Island. The fore stay was slack, there were waves, and the rig was gotten shook (shaken?) around. Guess what happened? Sure enough, the fore stay disconnected from the thingy on the bow again. The rig was nice enough not come down this time too and I replaced the now-missing push pin with a regular pin with a safety clip.
They say fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me but it has taken me three times to learn that a push pin is not a good way to connect the fore stay to the bow on a Montgomery 15!
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 18:03:50 -0400 From: Michael Murphy <mikeandpaula48@gmail.com> To: jake horine <smartypart@yahoo.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: (no subject) Message-ID: <CAE9+wJOEHdS3yjc5WBByDWa3MnYpV2MNrcPj2AfML8mZoph9nw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I sailed Flying Scotts at least twice a month for about 3 years. It's a fast boat; can be jiffy reefed for higher winds. Not exactly suitable for single-handed sailing but could be done in mild weather if you changed the sheeting arrangements. You can also set it up for a spinnaker.
The few times we trailered boats raising the mast was not as easy as the M-15 or M-17 mast.
It's a dream in sheltered waters (rivers and lakes) for 2 people. Carries 4 adults easily. Although the older capacity tabs said it could carry 6, that is a stretch IMO unless 2 are kids. I also sailed a factory restored boat several times. The boat looked good and handled well.
You can occasionally come across Flying Scott racing groups. There used to be one in the Beaufort NC area but I don't know how active they are at this time.
In summary, I think the Scott is a good stable boat that's easy and safe to sail.
Cheers, Mike M
On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 10:44 AM, jake horine via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I realize that this is a Montgomery site, but i thought i might be able to enlist some of your knowledge on another boat. I have a friend who has just recently started sailing and is interested in purchasing Flying Scot 19. Has anyone in the group had any experience with this boat? Any comments or advise would be appreciated. Cheers Jake Horine 1977 Montgomery 17 A-Koo-De-a
------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 15:33:01 -0700 From: "stevetrapp" <stevetrapp@q.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: : M-15 forestay device Message-ID: <3E2A798F52ED4206AE2DBB7CC8B5EE53@STEVEEW> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
These photos show the device I use on my M-15 forestay in place of a turnbuckle. It allows slack when open, but puts adequate tension on the forestay when closed, and locked. I bought it at a marine supply store, cost about the same as a turnbuckle. Steve M-15 # 335
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