I think we are all very interested in the story of a Montgomery 15 going over but am not sure we are all using the same language. I thought to "turn turtle" meant for a boat to turn completely upside down in the water - keel straight up, mast straight down - and stay that way, sort of like a turtle that is rolled onto its back. I get the impression many of us are not talking about this situation in this discussion when we say "turn turtle". I can easily imagine a boat like a Montgomery 15 being knocked down, loosing its crew, and the cabin filling with water as a result, but that process not resulting in the keel of the boat sticking straight up in the air for an extended period of time. I would imagine the swamped - or at least semi-swamped - boat may still want to right itself over time unless sail, wave, or other forces are acting to keep it in some other orientation. This situation would seem more like a "capsize" to me. Just doing quick internet searches did not turn up precise definitions for "turn turtle" and "capsize" so these very well may be my own definitions. In any event, I wonder if we are all talking about the same thing when we use the term "turn turtle". David GrahBishop CaliforniaMontgomery 15 - Sky