And you're also designing a kick-up, aren't you, Clarence? --Craig p.s., Clarence, aren't you also a pilot, as well as a sailor? I'd be interested to know how many list contributors are pilots, i.e., John Tyner calls himself an "aero engineer" . . . Both sailing and flying use craft powered by the Bernoulli effect, eh? ----- Original Message ----- From: "n9ca" <n9ca@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 10:40 AM Subject: Chimpanzee . . . When the rudder is in the raised position (looking at an elevation view - ie, a side view), the elevation of the bottom of the rudder is still about six inches below the keel, and WAY below the skeg. Therefore, with the rudder raised, there is room on the lower part of the rudder below the skeg to extend the leading edge forward . My M-17 was built in 2000, and the skeg extends just a few inches below the hull. I appreciate the subject being brought up, as it has prompted me to consider and additional alteration to my rudder. I shortened it so that when it is in the raised position the bottom of the rudder is at the same elevation (maybe an inch higher) as the keel. Now I may be able to add to the leading edge and regain the surface area that I lost in shortening it, and regain the lost windward performance, while at the same time reducing weather helm. Clarence Andrews M-17 Carpe Ventum #604 Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:45 PM Subject: Chimpanzee . . . John Tyner might enlighten us . . . What I don't understand about those early 17's, though . . . Could that balanced rudder be raised? If so, how? How did it clear the skeg? If not, then the centerboard was only for trailering convenience, "back in the day"? Jerry never expected anyone to sail in thin water?