On the contrary, I enjoyed my M17. It served its purpose and I moved on to performance boats (not counting that Taiwan thing). But, a strange thing happened over the years--I got old. I believe that the Mongomery is overrated in terms of quality. Swan, Hinkley, Shannon, Mercedes, and Papa Johns pizza are overrated. Quality means that a product is free of defects and fit for purpose. It's very little to do with price--you still have to compete. And, you still have to provide outstanding customer service. It's been fashionable for years for business owners to insist that they produce a quality product. It's in their best interest. The Montgomery product has seen continuous improvement over the years much like Harley Davidson has. Only a few years ago HD was considered agricultural technology. A noisy two-cylinder push rod engine? It was a dinosaur. Today, the same basic engine design with a little tuning produces massive HP to weight. Yes, that was too bad about Pacific Seacraft--almost tragic. But, you know, a business fails for just one reason. Bad management. I got the Sunfish because there's a large competitive fleet here where I live and my grandson loves to sail. It's simple to rig, sail and transport. There's a growing Flying Scot fleet here too. Cheers!> From: GILASAILR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:19:13 -0400> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: RE: M23 Still For Sale in AZ for $5800 or offer> > To the List, including someone who is not happy with their 'Montgomery > Experience' -that would be "Bill" .> > Bill, If you think the boat was so inferior on varying levels and from stem > (headstay attach to rudder) to stern - it looks like you learned a great deal > about what you want in a boat due to your experience with your Montgomery > Sailboat. That right there was worth the price of admission. Life is a learning > experience.> > Your J-22 (I have owned one # 89) has a rudder that is technically just as > 'inferior' as the M-17 rudder! > I bet you sold your J-22 for a good amount.> > You seem to have made great strides in 'designer' names of the boats you > have purchased since then - you name Colgate, Kirby and Farr. Bill, How many > Colgate 26's have they built? Who constructed your Farr and Kirby ? Are they in > business today?, and trust me, those boats, ALL BOATS have their > idiosyncrasies, weaknesses and faults. Most are greater than the M-17s minor concerns. > (M-17, M-23 designer - The great - Lyle Hess)> > Please allow that Your Opinions, My Opinions and those of the Buyer who > pointed out all of the M-17 weaknesses are JUST OPINIONS - remember everyone has > one, and they are generally worth FAR less than what you pay for them. If the > buyer didn't slam your boat- he wouldn't be doing what made him feel > superior in the negotiating process now would he? My response to folk like that > (after having done the same myself for years) is to say "Well Mr. Bummer, it > looks like you really want another kind of boat because this one is not meeting > your high standards. Have you seen the Bayliner/Aquarius/Clipper for sale over > at the next Marina? Maybe they will satisfy your needs and meet your high > criteria. Thank You for looking at my boat - Have a GREAT DAY" > > Your 'Buyers' concerns are NOT FACTS! > Case in point - you are discussing a small boat - approx. 1550# unladen, > masthead rig- if the "poor headstay attachment" you refer to, is going to fail - > the headsail/halyard is MORE THAN capable of supporting the rig. The rudder > is IMHO a marvelous solution and I wouldn't be caught dead with any OTHER > version of a LAME kick-up rudder. Even the NEW IMPROVED models of Kickup rudders.> > I will not spend time on the comments about the winches, plastic fittings > and compression post - I think sir, the person needs a lesson in understanding > the loads the boat is subject to while sailing. If you want something that is > BOMBPROOF go buy a boat from the "recently auctioned for $85000 peanuts- > previously financed by wealthy investors- World Cruiser model Sailboat Company" > and try towing that thing around - or better yet, start calculating how much > fresh water tankage you need to make it to Catalina Is. from San Pedro on a > 'slow' day. Oh I forgot, you will have to wait awhile while they get the World > Bruiser Sailing Vessel Company back up and running! I remember they used to > be quality boats, I truly hope they will be all that and more. But I don't > think they will build very many of them.> > For your grandsons sake, I hope his Sunfish wasn't built by the interim > builder of the 'New Deck Sunfish'. that there, that there is a weak boat - went > outta biz real quick - But then so did Alcort after many years, Chrysler etc. > And now a new Sunfish costs HOW much? > _http://www.teamvanguard.com/2005/base/content.asp?section=boats&dir=core&pag... > (http://www.teamvanguard.com/2005/base/content.asp?section=boats&dir=core&page=boats_features> &boatid=6) > Wow! I hope the VALUE of my Sunfish increases because of the > condition,location,demand and cost of replacement. But you know - it really doesn't matter > - because I didn't buy it as an "monetary investment"> > I have ranted more than enuf - IF you want something that meets all your > needs - BUILD IT.> The people on this list are here because they have an interest in a common > sport and notably a line of sailboats that have been well recvd by many people > - successful run in a VERY fickle business. > It would be nice if you respected the people on this list. But hey it is the > INTERNET and any monkey with a typewriter.......and some pee in his > cheerios............> > Bill. You have a great day and may I suggest a nice sail in the morning.> > Gary O> > They will have to pry my cold dead fingers off the tiller of my M-17.> PS it is NFS.> > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com> _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ Personalize your Live.com homepage with the news, weather, and photos you care about. http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx?icid=T001MSN30A0701