I tried the little twin horn reefing hook from Duckworks. The reef crinkle would fall off at the most inconvenient times. I bought another from West Marine and mounted it on the mast. Much better. It is more than ahook, once the crinkle is in place it can't come off. I've never timed myself reefing as being a single handed sailor both hands are full. One tactic I employ it to reef at the dock. If needed I will shake out reefs after assessing conditions. A further concern is the head sail. I see far to many of my sailing friends furl their head sails when the wind gets sporting, instead of reefing or double reefing the main. The next step is to fire the motor as without a head sail, these small pocket cruisers do not go to windward. Moving jib fair leads aft will flatten and depower the head sail. I recently sailed on the San Joaquin river into a 25 kt headwind, with gusting to 35. My 17 heeled and occasionally rounded up but did so in a predictable way. Shipped 1/2 g water (first time). Realized securing all openings a primary concern as I was unable to reach boards from the helm. Over my head, oh yes. Beyond the ability of my boat? Not even close . Everytime I sail in sporting conditions I learn more about my abilities and about the abilities of my boat. Thanks Jerry! 45 years young and still a great boat. Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44 On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 11:22 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: 15M v 17M (Jazzy) 2. Re: 15M v 17M (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) 4. Re: 15M v 17M (Lawrence Winiarski) 5. Re: 15M v 17M (Thomas Howe) 6. Re: 15M v 17M (Lawrence Winiarski) 7. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) 8. Re: 15M v 17M (Thomas Howe) 9. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) 10. Re: 15M v 17M (Dave Scobie) 11. Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) (John Schinnerer) 12. Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) (John Schinnerer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:21:42 -0800 From: Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: < CAHJ-33HA8cTe0RgQ-oRJe-r5bSm0HH3d7oPMyR7OXc_LkgSmcA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I just went out in a small vessel warning, severe weather watch in my 17 on purpose for experience. Double reef and furled genny..was a hoot! Tested me but the boat only messed up when I did and it saved me before I even knew twice. Stout little boats. That's why I hunted one down. Sail smart and itll have your back. A peaceful anchor on the lee shore of blake island, puget sound , and more of the same home. All good and never felt under boated.
El Nino
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 9:17 PM Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com wrote:
Ah, I remember it well! Fun sailing with you back then. I had a baggy jib I think. When I replaced the sails, the pointing improved. Still though, with the current and the waves, still not sure we woulda made it without motoring!
Daniel
On Nov 12, 2018, at 9:12 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I was in some 20+ knots, gusting higher, with steep wind chop, in an M15 (Daniel Rich's) on Tomales Bay (CA) years ago, and we were trying to tack back upwind to the launch ramp. We couldn't make much if any headway, and ended up dropping sails and motoring. After we sorted that out, I noticed that at no point in trying to tack or giving up and dropping sails could I recall being worried about the seaworthiness of the boat in those conditions. I was nervous, but not about the boat. We barely even got splashed.
cheers, John
On 11/12/2018 03:42 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Thanks this should give me more confidence! Pete Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 12, 2018, at 15:52, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Pete,
One of the M-15 owners sailed his M15 from San Diego to Hawaii, and recently wrote a book about his trip. He was 22 years old and sailed solo.
He does an excellent bit of writing; talking about his preparations; his initial departure; then the growing thought, "what have I gotten myself into....?" and then the slow but steady growth of his feeling that it's really doable as the days pass / bad weather passes / and slowly he nears his destination, Hawaii.
It was a 38 day ocean crossing in 1982.
The book title is: "A Little Breeze to the West" by Michael Scott Mann ISBN No.9781517572242
It's great read.
Ciao,
Connie
On 11/12/2018 2:18 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: Hi Brad: I really do love my M15 and it fits the bill for almost anything. I just worry about cruising in big water with it. I worry that I might be fool hearty going in some of the places I want to go with the bigger boats. Being a whitewater river rafter and dory man, I?m very cautious Thanks for the discussion. Good winds Pete
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 12, 2018, at 12:57, brad kurlancheek < bkurlancheek@gmail.com> wrote: > > Pete, > I own a 15M only - but I can tell how much a difference it was > for me going from my 13 foot microcruiser to the M15. > > In my 13, almost everything is within arm's reach. JUst a slight stretch > in one direction or the other, and voila, I had what I needed or could do > what I needed. > > And when I sit one one cockpit side, it's easy for me to rest my heels on > the edge > of the seat of the other side, and lean back a tad and be happy as a clam. > > Not so with the M15. I found that to do almost anything, required a whole > step > one way or the other, and then the stretch. In other words, I had to go get > it (poor me!). > > And when sitting on one cockpit bench my feet did not so comfortably find a > resting > place right on the other (i'm 5'9, or used to be). They could get there, > but it doesn't seem > as comfortable. > > Yes, of course, I much enjoy the lavish cabin space (lavish to me at least) > in the M15 as > compared to my 13 footer, and appreciate the added storage space, stability > and control immensely. > It's just that added step or additional reach required to get things done, > that sometimes chaffs on me. > > My point I guess, is, that with regards to your going from a 15 to 17, > anticipate > that for every movement > you used to make in the M15 to accomplish something, doing the same in an > M17, will require even a little > bit more movement than what you're used to. Good luck. - Brad
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:47:37 -0700 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: <3B56D6DA-8E31-4780-81D1-BE704ED3F2C3@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. Thanks,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) M377 outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
"Be with Tahlequah" Talhequah, you did this. From the day you lost your baby in the summer of 2018, then your 17-day tour of grief, you've brought the KEY crucial issues to the world to help us save your Orca family.
On Nov 15, 2018, at 1:21 AM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
I just went out in a small vessel warning, severe weather watch in my 17 on purpose for experience. Double reef and furled genny..was a hoot! Tested me but the boat only messed up when I did and it saved me before I even knew twice. Stout little boats. That's why I hunted one down. Sail smart and itll have your back. A peaceful anchor on the lee shore of blake island, puget sound , and more of the same home. All good and never felt under boated.
El Nino
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 9:17 PM Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com wrote:
Ah, I remember it well! Fun sailing with you back then. I had a baggy jib I think. When I replaced the sails, the pointing improved. Still though, with the current and the waves, still not sure we woulda made it without motoring!
Daniel
On Nov 12, 2018, at 9:12 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I was in some 20+ knots, gusting higher, with steep wind chop, in an M15 (Daniel Rich's) on Tomales Bay (CA) years ago, and we were trying to tack back upwind to the launch ramp. We couldn't make much if any headway, and ended up dropping sails and motoring. After we sorted that out, I noticed that at no point in trying to tack or giving up and dropping sails could I recall being worried about the seaworthiness of the boat in those conditions. I was nervous, but not about the boat. We barely even got splashed.
cheers, John
On 11/12/2018 03:42 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Thanks this should give me more confidence! Pete Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 12, 2018, at 15:52, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Pete,
One of the M-15 owners sailed his M15 from San Diego to Hawaii, and recently wrote a book about his trip. He was 22 years old and sailed solo.
He does an excellent bit of writing; talking about his preparations; his initial departure; then the growing thought, "what have I gotten myself into....?" and then the slow but steady growth of his feeling that it's really doable as the days pass / bad weather passes / and slowly he nears his destination, Hawaii.
It was a 38 day ocean crossing in 1982.
The book title is: "A Little Breeze to the West" by Michael Scott Mann ISBN No.9781517572242
It's great read.
Ciao,
Connie
> On 11/12/2018 2:18 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > Hi Brad: > I really do love my M15 and it fits the bill for almost anything. I just worry about cruising in big water with it. I worry that I might be fool hearty going in some of the places I want to go with the bigger boats. > Being a whitewater river rafter and dory man, I?m very cautious > Thanks for the discussion. > Good winds > Pete > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 12, 2018, at 12:57, brad kurlancheek < bkurlancheek@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Pete, >> I own a 15M only - but I can tell how much a difference it was >> for me going from my 13 foot microcruiser to the M15. >> >> In my 13, almost everything is within arm's reach. JUst a slight stretch >> in one direction or the other, and voila, I had what I needed or could do >> what I needed. >> >> And when I sit one one cockpit side, it's easy for me to rest my heels on >> the edge >> of the seat of the other side, and lean back a tad and be happy as a clam. >> >> Not so with the M15. I found that to do almost anything, required a whole >> step >> one way or the other, and then the stretch. In other words, I had to go get >> it (poor me!). >> >> And when sitting on one cockpit bench my feet did not so comfortably find a >> resting >> place right on the other (i'm 5'9, or used to be). They could get there, >> but it doesn't seem >> as comfortable. >> >> Yes, of course, I much enjoy the lavish cabin space (lavish to me at least) >> in the M15 as >> compared to my 13 footer, and appreciate the added storage space, stability >> and control immensely. >> It's just that added step or additional reach required to get things done, >> that sometimes chaffs on me. >> >> My point I guess, is, that with regards to your going from a 15 to 17, >> anticipate >> that for every movement >> you used to make in the M15 to accomplish something, doing the same in an >> M17, will require even a little >> bit more movement than what you're used to. Good luck. - Brad
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:23:40 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: < CAGjBOA5BiO8a04jC0_yknUWDSAGhRYSO9pAwyLNk74OnxYO+zg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water.
Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size.
Again this is a breaking wave not swells.
Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice.
Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. Thanks,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) M377 outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/>
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:50:30 +0000 (UTC) From: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski@yahoo.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: <1615424745.1095240.1542297030556@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I'm a little worried about being overconfident. Obviously any boat including a giant freighter has limits. I've been in 30mph winds on my M15 and felt pretty relaxed with everything reefed, but that was on a reservoir. I might feel a lot less relaxed in 1/2 the wind but with choppier water/swells.
Obviously any boat has limits, and I'd kind of like to get an idea from others about what conditions they WOULDN'T go out in in an M15. With or without passenger.
For example, given this weather report for the next 5 days, what do you think? Thur?Fri?Sat?Sun?Mon?
PZZ150-151945- Coastal Waters From Cape Flattery To James Island Out 10 Nm-
232 AM PST Thu Nov 15 2018 ...SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY FOR HAZARDOUS SEAS IN EFFECT THROUGH THIS EVENING...
TODAY S wind 5 to 15 kt rising to 15 to 20 kt in theafternoon. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 10 ft at 14 seconds. A slight chance of rain in the morning then a chance of rain in the
afternoon.
TONIGHT S wind 15 to 20 kt becoming W 5 to 15 kt aftermidnight. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 8 ft at 13 seconds. Rain
likely in the evening then a chance of rain after midnight.
FRI N wind 10 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 8 ft at 11 seconds. A slight chance of showers in the morning.
FRI NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 6 ft at 11 seconds.
SAT E wind 10 to 20 kt. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 5 ft at 13 seconds.
AT NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt becoming E 10 to 20 kt after midnight. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 6 ft at 14 seconds.
SUN E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 5 ft.
MON E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 3 ft.
________________________________
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:54:16 +0000 From: Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: < CY4PR11MB135212725FB29CCCECF2B4B1AFDC0@CY4PR11MB1352.namprd11.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be overcomplicated.
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water.
Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size.
Again this is a breaking wave not swells.
Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice.
Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. Thanks,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) M377 outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/>
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 15:59:04 +0000 (UTC) From: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski@yahoo.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: <83795892.1106783.1542297544600@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
That's great info.???? Thanks again Dave! From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 7:24 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water.
Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS.? When the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam.? As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll.? This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size.
Again this is a breaking wave not swells.
Know how to reef and make it simple and easy.? Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew line on the boom is simple and works!? Practice practice practice.
Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at more than 30% sail reduction.? Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on a roller furler!? The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. Thanks,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) M377 outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/>
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:17:15 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: < CAGjBOA4O2333duTA0srpqwLTPFinH5ppnEkDt8vcsyRjMWhKaA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Thomas:
Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses the process -
https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com wrote:
..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be overcomplicated.
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water.
Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size.
Again this is a breaking wave not swells.
Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice.
Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. Thanks,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) M377 outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/>
------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:22:40 +0000 From: Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: < CY4PR11MB1352277EE1310A1E90EE7239AFDC0@CY4PR11MB1352.namprd11.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What does a tack line attach to?
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Thomas:
Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses the process -
https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com wrote:
..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be overcomplicated.
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water.
Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size.
Again this is a breaking wave not swells.
Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice.
Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. Thanks,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) M377 outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/>
------------------------------
Message: 9 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:26:23 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski@yahoo.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: <CAGjBOA6wyfY-ss45vjMGXE_= iaQLsuP2Xga2uAJnv6coxJ2HeA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lawrence:
Always go only if you are comfortable!
The go-no-go decision is always the captain's.
Decision based on skills, experience and knowledge of the area.
To gain skills and experience can be done in many ways: challenge self out of comfort zone, classes and sailing with more experienced skippers. I learned a lot in the many cruise in company events like Larry Yake's old MSOG San Juan and Gulf Islands cruise; and small boat races like the old Wrinkleboat, old HPCC and the Cruiser Challenge.
One of the best has been sailing and racing with Jerry Montgomery.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:51 AM Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
I'm a little worried about being overconfident. Obviously any boat including a giant freighter has limits. I've been in 30mph winds on my M15 and felt pretty relaxed with everything reefed, but that was on a reservoir. I might feel a lot less relaxed in 1/2 the wind but with choppier water/swells.
Obviously any boat has limits, and I'd kind of like to get an idea from others about what conditions they WOULDN'T go out in in an M15. With or without passenger.
For example, given this weather report for the next 5 days, what do you think? Thur?Fri?Sat?Sun?Mon?
PZZ150-151945- Coastal Waters From Cape Flattery To James Island Out 10 Nm-
232 AM PST Thu Nov 15 2018 ...SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY FOR HAZARDOUS SEAS IN EFFECT THROUGH THIS EVENING...
TODAY S wind 5 to 15 kt rising to 15 to 20 kt in theafternoon. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 10 ft at 14 seconds. A slight chance of rain in the morning then a chance of rain in the
afternoon.
TONIGHT S wind 15 to 20 kt becoming W 5 to 15 kt aftermidnight. Wind
waves
1 to 3 ft. W swell 8 ft at 13 seconds. Rain
likely in the evening then a chance of rain after midnight.
FRI N wind 10 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 8 ft at 11 seconds. A slight chance of showers in the morning.
FRI NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 6 ft at 11 seconds.
SAT E wind 10 to 20 kt. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 5 ft at 13 seconds.
AT NIGHT NE wind 5 to 15 kt becoming E 10 to 20 kt after midnight. Wind waves 1 to 3 ft. W swell 6 ft at 14 seconds.
SUN E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 5 ft.
MON E wind 5 to 15 kt. Wind waves 1 to 2 ft. W swell 3 ft.
________________________________
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Message: 10 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:33:35 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M Message-ID: < CAGjBOA75NzooH63Ona7o2oKK0Fusaxxt2woRYBasmW2wdvm3nw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
IMO a reefing hook adds complication to small boats:
- lower main - hook tack (can be a challenge in high winds d with flapping sail) - raise main (which has now fallen off the wind and the sail is filling and hard to correctly set the luff)
The tack reef line is described in this post -
https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing/
Quicker and simpler as you lower main, tie off halyard, pull the tack & luff tight, reach aft along the boom and pull the clew tight and done.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 8:23 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com wrote:
I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What does a tack line attach to?
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Thomas:
Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses the process -
https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com wrote:
..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be overcomplicated.
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water.
Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size.
Again this is a breaking wave not swells.
Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice.
Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. Thanks,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) M377 outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/>
------------------------------
Message: 11 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:18:09 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) Message-ID: <3eb8c313-f7bd-0bc2-9bca-c913e078012e@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Some time back I posted an excellent article on clean simple reefing...can't find the link now but it speaks to all this with pictures etc.
I have tack hooks on my M17 boom - came that way... They were bolted through the second hole from front of boom (in the gooseneck tangs on the boom). Way too far back from the mast. I moved them up to the first hole, a bit better. If you look at even better tack hook setups they are actually mounted on the gooseneck hardware itself (the tack pin assembly itself, or something like that). So they are much closer to centerline.
If you use hooks, you want 'em as close to the centerline (mast track) as possible. On the boom is IMO not good enough. Because when you re-tension the main halyard, you're pulling up on the hook at least a little bit off-center of the boom. so you're twisting the boom sideways. Harder the pull, harder the twist. Stress on the gooseneck and/or limits gooseneck motion.
Tack line is pulling right down the middle, and right at foot of sail. And you don't have to lower main as far with tack line as with hooks. And you can even use the tack line as a downhaul to adjust luff tension (if luffing w/no pressure on sail).
I can't get my hooks where I'd want 'em so I will switch to tack lines for next season. The setup was in place but the clamcleats are worn out so just need to replace those.
As mine came, clew cleats were too far back on the boom, and the location of the cheek blocks was not right (placed for original sail, not moved for newer sail that came with the boat, is what it looks like). So I moved all that, and clamcleats instead of the old horn cleats.
cheers, John
On 11/15/2018 08:33 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
IMO a reefing hook adds complication to small boats:
- lower main - hook tack (can be a challenge in high winds d with flapping sail) - raise main (which has now fallen off the wind and the sail is filling and hard to correctly set the luff)
The tack reef line is described in this post -
https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing/
Quicker and simpler as you lower main, tie off halyard, pull the tack & luff tight, reach aft along the boom and pull the clew tight and done.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 8:23 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com wrote:
I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What does a tack line attach to?
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Thomas:
Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses the process -
https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com wrote:
..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be overcomplicated.
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water.
Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS. When the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam. As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll. This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size.
Again this is a breaking wave not swells.
Know how to reef and make it simple and easy. Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew line on the boom is simple and works! Practice practice practice.
Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at more than 30% sail reduction. Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on a roller furler! The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. Thanks,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) M377 outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 12 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:22:30 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) Message-ID: <89436dba-24b2-6a68-c56e-265cd23481c4@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Forgot to say...if anyone has any examples of fixing this issue...
My larger reefing problem is that my mast has a big (4" or more) cutaway in the sail track for slugs to go in - probably because the original sail was boltrope not slugs. And there's no "gate" on it that I can close. So reefing is a PITA at the tack because lowering main means taking out slug stop above cutaway, some slugs come out, some need to go below stop, I've got to feed them back in one side or another, then put the stop back in.
With tack lines I won't have to lower main quite as far so maybe one less slug to deal with.
But really I need to fabricate a gate for that area so there's no need for the slug stop, the slugs stay in and just stack up as low as possible.
That's the challenge with the tack lines - on a 2nd reef the tack cringle may be sitting on a big stack of slugs, can't come down towards the boom as far as one might like.
cheers, John
On 11/15/2018 10:18 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Some time back I posted an excellent article on clean simple reefing...can't find the link now but it speaks to all this with pictures etc.
I have tack hooks on my M17 boom - came that way... They were bolted through the second hole from front of? boom (in the gooseneck tangs on the boom). Way too far back from the mast. I moved them up to the first hole, a bit better. If you look at even better tack hook setups they are actually mounted on the gooseneck hardware itself (the tack pin assembly itself, or something like that). So they are much closer to centerline.
If you use hooks, you want 'em as close to the centerline (mast track) as possible. On the boom is IMO not good enough. Because when you re-tension the main halyard, you're pulling up on the hook at least a little bit off-center of the boom. so you're twisting the boom sideways. Harder the pull, harder the twist. Stress on the gooseneck and/or limits gooseneck motion.
Tack line is pulling right down the middle, and right at foot of sail. And you don't have to lower main as far with tack line as with hooks. And you can even use the tack line as a downhaul to adjust luff tension (if luffing w/no pressure on sail).
I can't get my hooks where I'd want 'em so I will switch to tack lines for next season. The setup was in place but the clamcleats are worn out so just need to replace those.
As mine came, clew cleats were too far back on the boom, and the location of the cheek blocks was not right (placed for original sail, not moved for newer sail that came with the boat, is what it looks like). So I moved all that, and clamcleats instead of the old horn cleats.
cheers, John
On 11/15/2018 08:33 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
IMO a reefing hook adds complication to small boats:
- lower main - hook tack (can be a challenge in high winds d with flapping sail) - raise main (which has now fallen off the wind and the sail is filling and hard to correctly set the luff)
The tack reef line is described in this post -
https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing/
Quicker and simpler as you lower main, tie off halyard, pull the tack & luff tight, reach aft along the boom and pull the clew tight and done.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 8:23 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com wrote:
I have a reefing hook attached to the forward end of the boom. What does a tack line attach to?
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 10:17 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Thomas:
Here is the first in a.series I created a few years ago that discusses the process -
https://sagemarineblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/reefing
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:54 AM Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com wrote:
..."a Tack line at the mast and a clew line on the boom.." ? I'm interested in seeing pictures of this arrangement. My system may be overcomplicated.
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com
On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 9:24 AM To: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 15M v 17M
Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water.
Be aware that the primary danger is NOT the wind it is THE SEAS.? When the wave height approaches about 1/2 the boat's beam a breaking wave is increasing likely to roll the boat when striking a boat at the beam.? As the wave height becomes greater than 1/2 the beam the boat will roll.? This simplified rule works for all sailboats of any size.
Again this is a breaking wave not swells.
Know how to reef and make it simple and easy.? Reefing a 15&17 Mboat, or Sage, should take 30 seconds. IMO on a.15/17 single line reefing are prone to jams and is slow and using a tack horn makes reefing more complicated. The system Jerry provided on the boats, a tack line at the mast and clew line on the boom is simple and works!? Practice practice practice.
Be aware of the very poor sail shape roller reefing headsail creates at more than 30% sail reduction.? Don't 'modify' a hankon headsail to work on a roller furler!? The sails are cut differently to work correctly and a incorrectly cut furling headsail will become a worse 'bag' when reefed and make the boat heal more than when fully extended.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:48 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
I think going out in some strong winds for practice is a good idea. Of course, being out on a reservoir in gusts and pretty close to the boat ramp is not like being on the open water. Your story about the Monty taking the seas is much appreciated. I underestimate my M15. Thanks,
Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky) M377 outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 189, Issue 7 ************************************************
