Jerry, I like what I'm reading here. Balsa core, minimal sitting headroom with NO compression post, sloop rig, centerboard on centerline where it belongs, blah blah blah. Sounds like an upgraded M-15! Keeping it sensible. I like it. Jason 1988 M-15 #411 Hood River, OR -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 5:31 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: research OK- got the canoe camping out of my system for awhile. I've got about two hours before the Lakers-Nuggets game (go Denver!) so I'll flap my fingers for awhile. This will be somewhat disjointed, probably. (Pun intended) Balsa Core- Yes, it has problems with dryrot if you get careless and don't keep the leaks in the bedding sealed, but there is nothing like it for stiffness with light weight. Ever notice that there are seldom stress cracks in the corners and angles on Montgomery decks? Balsa core. Sitting headroom- The concensus is that sitting headroom is important. I think we can do this. If we add 6" or so to the length of the house and lengthen and lower the bench aft of the v-berth it should work. Lowering the bench will cut down on storage some, so it's a compromise. For those of you who have sat below on a 23, it BARELY has sitting headroom under the side deck. I think the best we could do in a 16 would be to make it like the 17, where you have sitting headroom if you don't care about banging the back of your head against the side of the house. Some of you liked the quarter berth type interior, which can give good sitting headroom, but I've heard praises about the 15 interior as opposed to the Compac 16. I don't remember ever crawling into a comPac berth, but I've heard comments that it's difficult to roll over, as is the M-17. A couple of you sent links to X brand boats with a desirable interior and I haven't looked at them yet but I will. The sitting headroom thing is such a compromise; to get height over a quarterberth you usually need to raise the cockpit benches too much, and the geometry of the cockpit is really important, at least to me. Also remember that true sitting headroom is next to impossible without raising the freeboard, because you still have to get under the side decks. That's the reason for a flush deck cabin. like the Cal and Ensenada 20. Ugly, in my mind. Cockpit drainage- We had trouble with the 17, and when I retooled the 17 in about '82 I raised the cockpit 3/4", a nd put in a wetlocker. That helped but didn't really cure the problem. I really don't know how high the sosle is above thbe waterline, but it's several inches, believe it or not. I'm pretty sure that the 15 sole is 3" over the waterline, and it's better than the 17 but not perfect. One thing, the 15 cockpit angles forward and the 17 angles aft. In the 17, the wetlocker helped a lot because about 90% of the water, if pooped, would drain out pretty fast because of the two 2" holes a couple of inches off the sole. Rudder- Yes, I'd plan to do a kickup rudder, similar to the 15. If doing it over, I'd put the same thing on a 17 but i was afraid of losing a rudder now nd then, which happens to some of the competition. Note that Mike Mann 's 15 that he sailed to HI had a slightly shortened 17 rudder. The rig- Years ago I helped sail a Freedom 40 and the next smaller- I think a 34- from Newport to King Harbor, which is about 30 miles or so, mostly upwind. The gal that saialed with me was far more experienced than me on that type of boat, but upwind we just couldn't get the boat moving. We over sheeted, undersheeted, but nothing worked and we finally gave up and mixed a drink. Towards the last, when we eased off to a close reach the boat finally came alive and boomed right along. I think nothing is as effective as a good old Marconi sloop rig; a main and a jib. Without things like rotating masts and wing masts, nothing goes upwind like a sloop rig. Gaff rigs are kind of neat, an d if Doug Kelch lived around here you can bet that I'd be trying to weasel myself a ride. Same with cat ketches, but I want my boat to go well upwind and I'm willing to stumble over lots of wire and turnbuckles. Offset Centerboard- Hmmm. Getting the trunk out from under the cockpit sounds great, but how much would it slow the boat down? It's a given that it would, but how much? For years, whenm I lived in Newport Beach, I sailed Sabots everyh Wed nite at ou club. The sabot, as sailed in S CA, has a leeboard. We sailed the boat flat on the starboard tack and heeled over on port. The sabot was really a terrible little boat (an 8' pram) but was great fun to race because everybody had the same problem. Another thing, we made our little dinghies both ways; either a leeboard or a daggerboard. The daggerboard boats would KILL the leeboard boats upwind. I wonder if the main reason is that the turbulence between the leeboard and the side of the boat did something weird. I'd really be afraid that something like that would happen between the CB and the keel. In the new boat I'm lean ing towards a heavier, more efficient centerboard, more like te original 17's and yes, it would need a winch but yes, it would go faster upwind. Compression Post- I'd opt for no post, like the 15. It would take some serious stiffening, probably with carbon fiber, but could be done. I've done lots of work with carbon in 20 lb racing canoes and kayaks (see huki.com) and have it wired. I hate weight aloft because it's anti-ballast, and I'm sure that we could do it with no more weight than a post. Bridge Deck- Bitch, bitch, bitch! A wide bridge deck encroaches on the footroom of the crew, who just might want to sit up against the house, keeping the weight forward. A high bridgedeck does cut down on getting water below, but it makes a longer step to go below. I think the 15 is pretty well thought out in this regard. Just enough of a deck to make a place for the mainsheet cleat an d a cleat for the CB. Perspective of size- Remember that this project is probably a 16. A 16 would make a roomier and better performing 15. An 18 or 19 would make for a roomier and better performing 17, but it's not enough more room to allow a settee. Years ago I did some serious drawing on a 20, which barely would allow for a settee. It was so long ago that Lyle spent some time with me looking over my shoulder before he started loosing his vision. I'm not even sure that I still have those drawings; if I do they're in a box somewhere in the shop. My personal preference of these boats might be the 18 or 19, just because it would go faster and make it easier to win races! Any more suggestions or comments, keep them coming! jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!