Sign your boat? Oh yeh, I remember you- from the Monterey race? I'll start carrying a marker pen with me. I'll try to make it to Tahoe nxt summer, but my brother (a non-sailor but a quick study) and I are talking about going to Lake Powell and floating around for a week or two, or as long as the fish last. ----Original Message----- From: Jon Barber Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2018 5:11 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Spreader Covers I use old spreader tubes with PVC caps both ends. They don't cover the lower toggle. I had a religious moment once as the jib sheet snagged and removed a ring ding there. Realized I needed to reverse the pins so the ring ding is aft. Also taped all offending ring ding. All is now well . That was close. I'll sail Tahoe! Put me in the queue! Great boat, thanks Jerry ( still want you to sign my boat). Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Thu, Dec 6, 2018, 11:01 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: cold weather and sails (Gary Oberbeck) 2. Re: cold weather and sails (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers (John Schinnerer) 4. Re: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers (Dave Scobie) 5. Re: New Owner - M17 Poppy (John Schinnerer) 6. Re: New Owner - M17 Poppy (jerry@jerrymontgomery.org) 7. Re: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers (jerry@jerrymontgomery.org) 8. Re: Tender (John Schinnerer) 9. Re: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers (John Schinnerer) 10. Re: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers (Keith R. Martin) 11. Re: New Owner - M17 Poppy (Les Schuldt) 12. Re: New Owner - M17 Poppy (Steve Trapp) 13. Re: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers (John Schinnerer) 14. Re: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers (jerry@jerrymontgomery.org)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 20:50:11 +0000 (UTC) From: Gary Oberbeck <gilasailr@aol.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: cold weather and sails Message-ID: <1875022638.2494821.1544043011635@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Ullman Sails has a sail customer wandering around the ends of the earth sailing in very cold conditions - Check their website - interesting story. GO
-----Original Message----- From: casioqv <casioqv@usermail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wed, Dec 5, 2018 11:15 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: cold weather and sails
According to this, PET (the plastic sails are made of) becomes brittle around -40C/-40F:
https://omnexus.specialchem.com/polymer-properties/properties/ductile-brittl...
I'd imagine it would be possible to damage a dacron sail sailing at -40F, but I can't imagine how you'd find such conditions with liquid water to sail on.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "scoobscobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: "Peter Zimowsky" <rapidz@mac.com>, "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 9:29:17 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: cold weather and sails
I've never heard if damage to sails due to cold temps.? Never damaged one when sailing in the mid-20s.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 8:57 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
Hi: My cutoff temp was 40 degrees for sailing in Idaho. It?s in the 30s now and I can?t stand it. Gotta go out. Will cold temps damage sails? Thanks, Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 18:36:17 -0700 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> To: Gary Oberbeck <gilasailr@aol.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: cold weather and sails Message-ID: <D057D757-95B5-46E1-8FFD-4A51500B5FD4@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Thanks all for the info on sails Pete
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 5, 2018, at 13:50, Gary Oberbeck via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Ullman Sails has a sail customer wandering around the ends of the earth sailing in very cold conditions - Check their website - interesting story. GO
-----Original Message----- From: casioqv <casioqv@usermail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wed, Dec 5, 2018 11:15 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: cold weather and sails
According to this, PET (the plastic sails are made of) becomes brittle around -40C/-40F:
https://omnexus.specialchem.com/polymer-properties/properties/ductile-brittl...
I'd imagine it would be possible to damage a dacron sail sailing at
-40F, but I can't imagine how you'd find such conditions with liquid water to sail on.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "scoobscobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: "Peter Zimowsky" <rapidz@mac.com>, "For and about Montgomery
Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 9:29:17 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: cold weather and sails
I've never heard if damage to sails due to cold temps. Never damaged one when sailing in the mid-20s.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 8:57 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
Hi: My cutoff temp was 40 degrees for sailing in Idaho. It?s in the 30s now and I can?t stand it. Gotta go out. Will cold temps damage sails? Thanks, Pete Winter Sky (Zimowsky)
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 19:18:00 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers Message-ID: <0f4fa394-cfae-e7b6-2eca-bf7a7e46a441@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Hi all,
A couple things I want to get in place, or improve, for next season, on my M17.
Anyone have a particular shroud/turnbuckle cover product (or DIY method) they can recommend (meaning you've used it and it works well for you)? I want to be done with jib sheet and/or jib edge catching on turnbuckles/lower shrouds (not to mention want to be done with the wear & tear on sheets & sail).
Same question re spreader boots or jib rollers. Has anyone used the Forespar jib roller or Harken chafe protector roller on your shrouds? They are spec'd for 3/16" and up wire, but I imagine a bushing could be used on 1/8" wire. Saw these rollers in action on a friend's larger boat and seems all around smarter approach than spreader boots. Can't find anyone making a smaller roller for 1/8" wire but if you know of one please point me to it.
I have tried the rubber spreader boots (taylor made or whitecap brands) and IMO they suck; too stiff of material, poor fit, etc..
thanks, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 19:30:33 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers Message-ID: <CAGjBOA5TU4CHt5FnOsHKtXdYDCb4R6BOsUYKVRAJY= 9T0iR24w@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
John:
Get 3M '35' heavy duty electrical tape. Wrap the turnbuckles so JUST the cotter pins are covered leaving the bodies open (no trapped water to cause crevice corrosion). This means each turnbuckle has two tape bands: one for the upper swage fitting pin and one for the lower t-bolt pin. Replace yearly (you should be taking the pins out and twisting the turnbuckles a few threads back and forth each way to assure you don't get any rusting and fusing the turnbuckles).
IMO no need for boots on the spreaders. As you wrote all types interfere with raising/lowering mast and huge overkill for the Mboats. Which speader design do you have? Fixed or the swinging? Captive uppers at the spreader ends or held in place with a strand if rigging wire?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 7:18 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Hi all,
A couple things I want to get in place, or improve, for next season, on my M17.
Anyone have a particular shroud/turnbuckle cover product (or DIY method) they can recommend (meaning you've used it and it works well for you)? I want to be done with jib sheet and/or jib edge catching on turnbuckles/lower shrouds (not to mention want to be done with the wear & tear on sheets & sail).
Same question re spreader boots or jib rollers. Has anyone used the Forespar jib roller or Harken chafe protector roller on your shrouds? They are spec'd for 3/16" and up wire, but I imagine a bushing could be used on 1/8" wire. Saw these rollers in action on a friend's larger boat and seems all around smarter approach than spreader boots. Can't find anyone making a smaller roller for 1/8" wire but if you know of one please point me to it.
I have tried the rubber spreader boots (taylor made or whitecap brands) and IMO they suck; too stiff of material, poor fit, etc..
thanks, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design --------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 19:40:19 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner - M17 Poppy Message-ID: <9a9c7824-1623-5229-a309-251f3bacd8bf@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Welcome Les, congrats on the M-17!
I just passed through Reno yesterday. Definitely not great sailing weather...just around freezing and a skiff (not the boat kind) of snow overnight.
I'll be curious to hear about your Tahoe cruising. There's not a lot of anchorages there it would seem to me...all pretty wide open except for Emerald bay. But would be some gorgeous sailing. I have thought about taking my M17 there some day (originally from Albany in the Bay area, now living in Ashland in southern OR).
cheers, John
On 11/29/2018 10:35 AM, Les Schuldt wrote:
Hello Montysians, I was fortunate enough to snap up Mitch Carnes ?Grace? (now renamed ?Poppy? for my granddaughter). Briefly owned by Craig Smith, she is the boat featured in Craig?s M15-M17 comparison video, (Youtube ibcontent). I only had a chance to sail her a few times before the weather turned cool here in Reno, but I?m hoping to join a few others for a week at Lake Havasu, then on to the Lake Pleasant Messabout. I?ve sailed, raced, lived aboard, and restored wooden and fiberglass boats for the last 30 years on S.F. Bay. As a long-time fan of Lyle Hess designs, I think the Montgomery is going to be the perfect boat for my new home in the Sierras. I?ve already blocked off a month next summer to spend aboard exploring Lake Tahoe.
Looking forward to meeting you all, Les & Ingrid Schuldt Reno, Nevada
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 19:50:00 -0800 From: <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner - M17 Poppy Message-ID: <724E0A6D4B144348B311E46838D05EE0@CH002914> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response
Les- I almost hauled my Sage to Tahoe after the Monterey race to wash the salt off, but never got it off the ground (pun intended). Be a nice place to float around for a week or so and get out of the Sac Valley heat. I've done a bazillion outrigger canoe races there, mostly the Carnelian Bay end; if you go there next July I might be interested. I've got an old girlfriend who has a cabin at S Tahoe who would probably join me for a while, then she gets tired of me.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 7:40 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner - M17 Poppy
Welcome Les, congrats on the M-17!
I just passed through Reno yesterday. Definitely not great sailing weather...just around freezing and a skiff (not the boat kind) of snow overnight.
I'll be curious to hear about your Tahoe cruising. There's not a lot of anchorages there it would seem to me...all pretty wide open except for Emerald bay. But would be some gorgeous sailing. I have thought about taking my M17 there some day (originally from Albany in the Bay area, now living in Ashland in southern OR).
cheers, John
On 11/29/2018 10:35 AM, Les Schuldt wrote:
Hello Montysians, I was fortunate enough to snap up Mitch Carnes ?Grace? (now renamed ?Poppy? for my granddaughter). Briefly owned by Craig Smith, she is the boat featured in Craig?s M15-M17 comparison video, (Youtube ibcontent). I only had a chance to sail her a few times before the weather turned cool here in Reno, but I?m hoping to join a few others for a week at Lake Havasu, then on to the Lake Pleasant Messabout. I?ve sailed, raced, lived aboard, and restored wooden and fiberglass boats for the last 30 years on S.F. Bay. As a long-time fan of Lyle Hess designs, I think the Montgomery is going to be the perfect boat for my new home in the Sierras. I?ve already blocked off a month next summer to spend aboard exploring Lake Tahoe.
Looking forward to meeting you all, Les & Ingrid Schuldt Reno, Nevada
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 19:58:42 -0800 From: <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers Message-ID: <A69E2DC2B2B6400ABCBFAF655E23D60E@CH002914> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original
John- What I do is to use Gorilla tape, which is 2" wide and now available in white. I just wrap it on the bottom; it'll cover the bottom of the barrel to keep it from turning, and also the pin on the bottom tang, which will help keep the jibsheet from hanging up on it in a drifter. I keep a roll on the boat because it great for taping telltails.
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 7:30 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers,spreader boots/rollers
John:
Get 3M '35' heavy duty electrical tape. Wrap the turnbuckles so JUST the cotter pins are covered leaving the bodies open (no trapped water to cause crevice corrosion). This means each turnbuckle has two tape bands: one for the upper swage fitting pin and one for the lower t-bolt pin. Replace yearly (you should be taking the pins out and twisting the turnbuckles a few threads back and forth each way to assure you don't get any rusting and fusing the turnbuckles).
IMO no need for boots on the spreaders. As you wrote all types interfere with raising/lowering mast and huge overkill for the Mboats. Which speader design do you have? Fixed or the swinging? Captive uppers at the spreader ends or held in place with a strand if rigging wire?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 7:18 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Hi all,
A couple things I want to get in place, or improve, for next season, on my M17.
Anyone have a particular shroud/turnbuckle cover product (or DIY method) they can recommend (meaning you've used it and it works well for you)? I want to be done with jib sheet and/or jib edge catching on turnbuckles/lower shrouds (not to mention want to be done with the wear & tear on sheets & sail).
Same question re spreader boots or jib rollers. Has anyone used the Forespar jib roller or Harken chafe protector roller on your shrouds? They are spec'd for 3/16" and up wire, but I imagine a bushing could be used on 1/8" wire. Saw these rollers in action on a friend's larger boat and seems all around smarter approach than spreader boots. Can't find anyone making a smaller roller for 1/8" wire but if you know of one please point me to it.
I have tried the rubber spreader boots (taylor made or whitecap brands) and IMO they suck; too stiff of material, poor fit, etc..
thanks, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design --------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 20:09:20 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tender Message-ID: <4093cca5-c5b7-10d3-b4c8-188755880b90@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
I have an M17 but I will claim this reply is relevant anyhow...:-)
Mainly because what I am going to be using (see below) is also used by at least one Potter 15 owner, who stows it in the cabin while under way, and that cabin is a fair bit smaller than an M15 cabin.
I'm building a slightly modified version of the Origami folding dinghy: http://woodenwidget.com/origami.htm
Modified in that I'm basing it on the 6 ft. version but adding about half a foot - a bit more at the midline - thus making the bow a bit more vee-shaped, less blunt, which also involves changing the shape of the bow stem piece to match the sides. Some of the angles of side pieces vs bow and stern stems will be adjusted slightly so the fabric can be smooth rather than wrinkled at bow and stern.
I actually like the lines and ease of the fold/collapse system of the Fliptail better: http://woodenwidget.com/fliptail.htm
...but it is bulkier (11" thicker when folded mainly), and, the designer tells me the Origami is a bit better for rowing/motoring (the Fliptail a bit better for the optional sail rig).
Here's a Duckworks article by the guy who used an Origami 6 with his Potter 15: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/projects/origami3/index.htm
My slightly larger "6-plus" version will stash on one side of the V-berth in my M17. The M15 V-berth is a few inches longer even (though the companionway a bit smaller...but still bigger than a Potter 15 I think). It could also stash on the settee in an M17.
I went around and around on tender/dinghy ideas for a long time and looked at a lot of options, including hardshell and inflatables. I've had experience with low end (Tahiti) and high end (Aire tandem) inflatable kayaks, and with Walker Bay dinghies, and one ride in an M-7-11 no less.
So far the clever folding designs of Origami or Fliptail is the coolest option I've found. Collapses and sets up quick. Packs quite small and light for its load capacity. Stows on board, don't have to tow. And I can put my Honda 2.3hp auxiliary on it if I really want to zip around fast...!
If I were going with a hardshell, I'd probably go with a Portage Pram (the modern version, kit or plans built): http://www.duckworksbbs.com/category-s/463.htm
Or possibly the CLC Eastport ultralight:
https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/rowboats/dinghies/eastport-ultralight-di...
...but the Portage Pram seems just a bit more of everything for the size and weight.
I'll report on the Origami in late spring/early summer when I get it finished and do some sea (well, lake to start with) trials.
cheers, John
On 11/29/2018 05:57 PM, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats wrote:
Just curious what the M-15 sailors here are using for a tender. In Puget Sound your really need one because anchorages are rugged and rocky and beaching is a challenge or impossible. Please share your thoughts, experiences, opinions, etc. M-17?s need not apply! (Unless you also have an M-15. ?)
Rusty
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 9 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 20:35:01 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers Message-ID: <9e8df109-4c7d-2c37-0304-6858b79dffe5@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Thanks Dave & Jerry...
Doesn't the Gorilla tape leave an awful mess (like duct tape) when you take it off? I've used it for other things and if it's been on for long, especially in warm weather, it leaves a sticky mess behind, like duct tape.
Also, to further clarify my situation - my shrouds have toggle-jaw to thimbles & nicopress on the upper sides, not swaged studs (came that way). That's what catches the sheet and/or jib edge as much or more than the turnbuckles themselves. Especially now that I have a higher-cut cruising genny. So just taping the turnbuckles won't do much good.
How about a simple piece of plastic pipe over the lower part? The commercial products seem to be some expensive version of that (except for the soft ones of leather or synthetic fabric).
Re spreader boots/rollers: My spreaders are the floppy kind - a u-shaped SS bracket on each side of mast,held with bolt thru mast, and spreader tubes pivot on bolt thru u-brackets. The outboard ends of tubes have a cast aluminum piece with a slot for the wire and a cotter pin hole across end of slot to capture the wire. So main issue is cotter pin or equivalent (sharp metal) at end of spreader outside shroud. I will look into using something smooth in place of the cotter pin...
A friend has the jib rollers on a larger boat and I like how they work. Better idea than boots it seems to me. Keeps sail off spreader end and also helps it roll over/past. I've had my jib leach catch on the rubber boots in light air, another shortcoming of those.
thanks, John
On 12/05/2018 07:58 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
John- What I do is to use Gorilla tape, which is 2" wide and now available in white.? I just wrap it on the bottom; it'll cover the bottom of the barrel to keep it from turning, and also the pin on the bottom tang, which will help keep the jibsheet from hanging up on it in a drifter.? I keep a roll on the boat because it great for taping telltails.
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 7:30 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers,spreader boots/rollers
John:
Get 3M '35' heavy duty electrical tape.? Wrap the turnbuckles so JUST the cotter pins are covered leaving the bodies open (no trapped water to cause crevice corrosion). This means each turnbuckle has two tape bands: one for the upper swage fitting pin and one for the lower t-bolt pin. Replace yearly (you should be taking the pins out and twisting the turnbuckles a few threads back and forth each way to assure you don't get any rusting and fusing the turnbuckles).
IMO no need for boots on the spreaders.?? As you wrote all types interfere with raising/lowering mast and huge overkill for the Mboats. Which speader design do you have?? Fixed or the swinging?? Captive uppers at the spreader ends or held in place with a strand if rigging wire?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 7:18 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Hi all,
A couple things I want to get in place, or improve, for next season, on my M17.
Anyone have a particular shroud/turnbuckle cover product (or DIY method) they can recommend (meaning you've used it and it works well for you)? I want to be done with jib sheet and/or jib edge catching on turnbuckles/lower shrouds (not to mention want to be done with the wear & tear on sheets & sail).
Same question re spreader boots or jib rollers. Has anyone used the Forespar jib roller or Harken chafe protector roller on your shrouds? They are spec'd for 3/16" and up wire, but I imagine a bushing could be used on 1/8" wire. Saw these rollers in action on a friend's larger boat and seems all around smarter approach than spreader boots. Can't find anyone making a smaller roller for 1/8" wire but if you know of one please point me to it.
I have tried the rubber spreader boots (taylor made or whitecap brands) and IMO they suck; too stiff of material, poor fit, etc..
thanks, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design --------------------------------------------
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 10 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 08:18:20 -0500 From: "Keith R. Martin" <keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers Message-ID: < CAOQkDszLjCwSiW_KeTxwkHzB9Mq-2+hytYqaXrjXFvscRQP7HQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
John,
For turnbuckle rollers I just use white pvc pipe (1 in" diameter I think) cut to the desired length, and lightly sand off the ink printing on the sides of the tube. It's not flashy, but works well and is very cheap. The pvc doesn't have much UV resistance so I replace them every couple of years.
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng*. *Burnaby, BC*
*Serenity, M17 #353*
On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 23:35, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Dave & Jerry...
Doesn't the Gorilla tape leave an awful mess (like duct tape) when you take it off? I've used it for other things and if it's been on for long, especially in warm weather, it leaves a sticky mess behind, like duct tape.
Also, to further clarify my situation - my shrouds have toggle-jaw to thimbles & nicopress on the upper sides, not swaged studs (came that way). That's what catches the sheet and/or jib edge as much or more than the turnbuckles themselves. Especially now that I have a higher-cut cruising genny. So just taping the turnbuckles won't do much good.
How about a simple piece of plastic pipe over the lower part? The commercial products seem to be some expensive version of that (except for the soft ones of leather or synthetic fabric).
Re spreader boots/rollers: My spreaders are the floppy kind - a u-shaped SS bracket on each side of mast,held with bolt thru mast, and spreader tubes pivot on bolt thru u-brackets. The outboard ends of tubes have a cast aluminum piece with a slot for the wire and a cotter pin hole across end of slot to capture the wire. So main issue is cotter pin or equivalent (sharp metal) at end of spreader outside shroud. I will look into using something smooth in place of the cotter pin...
A friend has the jib rollers on a larger boat and I like how they work. Better idea than boots it seems to me. Keeps sail off spreader end and also helps it roll over/past. I've had my jib leach catch on the rubber boots in light air, another shortcoming of those.
thanks, John
On 12/05/2018 07:58 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
John- What I do is to use Gorilla tape, which is 2" wide and now available in white. I just wrap it on the bottom; it'll cover the bottom of the barrel to keep it from turning, and also the pin on the bottom tang, which will help keep the jibsheet from hanging up on it in a drifter. I keep a roll on the boat because it great for taping telltails.
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 7:30 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers,spreader boots/rollers
John:
Get 3M '35' heavy duty electrical tape. Wrap the turnbuckles so JUST the cotter pins are covered leaving the bodies open (no trapped water to cause crevice corrosion). This means each turnbuckle has two tape bands: one for the upper swage fitting pin and one for the lower t-bolt pin. Replace yearly (you should be taking the pins out and twisting the turnbuckles a few threads back and forth each way to assure you don't get any rusting and fusing the turnbuckles).
IMO no need for boots on the spreaders. As you wrote all types interfere with raising/lowering mast and huge overkill for the Mboats. Which speader design do you have? Fixed or the swinging? Captive uppers at the spreader ends or held in place with a strand if rigging wire?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 7:18 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Hi all,
A couple things I want to get in place, or improve, for next season, on my M17.
Anyone have a particular shroud/turnbuckle cover product (or DIY method) they can recommend (meaning you've used it and it works well for you)? I want to be done with jib sheet and/or jib edge catching on turnbuckles/lower shrouds (not to mention want to be done with the wear & tear on sheets & sail).
Same question re spreader boots or jib rollers. Has anyone used the Forespar jib roller or Harken chafe protector roller on your shrouds? They are spec'd for 3/16" and up wire, but I imagine a bushing could be used on 1/8" wire. Saw these rollers in action on a friend's larger boat and seems all around smarter approach than spreader boots. Can't find anyone making a smaller roller for 1/8" wire but if you know of one please point me to it.
I have tried the rubber spreader boots (taylor made or whitecap brands) and IMO they suck; too stiff of material, poor fit, etc..
thanks, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design --------------------------------------------
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 11 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 08:36:01 -0800 From: Les Schuldt <les.schuldt@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner - M17 Poppy Message-ID: <959CAAF8-7B53-481C-B2BE-0928E3FFF667@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John, So far, I?ve only dipped my toe into Tahoe for about a week aboard my previous boat, a Drascombe Lugger. I?ve spent a few nights each at Lester Beach (DL Bliss State Park), and anchored in Emerald Bay.
You?re correct, except for Emerald Bay, most of the anchorages are open roadsteads, with the prevailing winds from the Southeast (mornings), clocking to Southwest in the afternoon. In these conditions the best overnight locations will be on the north side of any point ie: Rubicon Point, Sugar Pine Point, Zephyr Point. The farther north you go, the more likely you?ll be anchoring on a lee shore. (With strong southerlys, we get surfable waves on the north shore.) I?ve also explored Skunk Harbor and Sand Harbor by kayak and these look promising. Sand Harbor has offshore rock piles that will offer some protection. Monitor the weather reports and choose your anchorage carefully.
Emerald Bay offers protection from any wind and provides quiet, calm nights after the tourists and stereo blasting powerboats leave. Along the north and south sides of the bay, the bottom drops away into deep water about 10? from shore, but there are about 20 mooring balls (Boat-In Campground) that can be reserved through Emerald Bay State Park. But the little known secret (don?t tell anybody) is that anchoring is permitted on a shallow sandy bottom with lots of swing room at the head of the bay for approx. 100 yards on either side of the public pier and swim area. You can use this anchorage as a base for beautiful day-hikes to Eagle Falls, Eagle Lake, and beyond. Remember, lake level is 6,200 ft, so take it easy. A tour of Vikingsholm and a couple hour kayak rental would round out a nice day there.
To launch at any of the ramps on Lake Tahoe, you will need to have an Anti Invasive Species Inspection. Your bilge and outboard must be clean and DRY. Cost is about $30, more if the boat needs to be decontaminated. See: https://tahoeboatinspections.com/
The lake water is CLEAR, with 100?+ visibility, but keep your eyes open. I?ve been in 30? of water along shore and encountered 29? diameter rocks, just awash! Summer air temps are in the 70s and 80s, but lake temps are mid-50s to mid-60s.
I?m planning to be on the lake from mid-August through mid-September. I?ll send out an invite to the group for anyone that might want to bring out their boat and join me.
Les My Lugger (also named Poppy) on Emerald Bay.
On Dec 5, 2018, at 7:40 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Welcome Les, congrats on the M-17!
I just passed through Reno yesterday. Definitely not great sailing weather...just around freezing and a skiff (not the boat kind) of snow overnight.
I'll be curious to hear about your Tahoe cruising. There's not a lot of anchorages there it would seem to me...all pretty wide open except for Emerald bay. But would be some gorgeous sailing. I have thought about taking my M17 there some day (originally from Albany in the Bay area, now living in Ashland in southern OR).
cheers, John
On 11/29/2018 10:35 AM, Les Schuldt wrote: Hello Montysians, I was fortunate enough to snap up Mitch Carnes ?Grace? (now renamed ?Poppy? for my granddaughter). Briefly owned by Craig Smith, she is the boat featured in Craig?s M15-M17 comparison video, (Youtube ibcontent). I only had a chance to sail her a few times before the weather turned cool here in Reno, but I?m hoping to join a few others for a week at Lake Havasu, then on to the Lake Pleasant Messabout. I?ve sailed, raced, lived aboard, and restored wooden and fiberglass boats for the last 30 years on S.F. Bay. As a long-time fan of Lyle Hess designs, I think the Montgomery is going to be the perfect boat for my new home in the Sierras. I?ve already blocked off a month next summer to spend aboard exploring Lake Tahoe. Looking forward to meeting you all, Les & Ingrid Schuldt Reno, Nevada
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 12 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 10:28:29 -0800 From: "Steve Trapp" <stevetrapp@Q.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner - M17 Poppy Message-ID: <829FFF032113476BA105DC0F59075051@HPPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response
Jerry, I had an old girl friend who sailed with me on my M-15 too, but she became a former girlfriend when I told after the last time she sailed with me that she was welcome to come sail with me again, but not her dog. Not enough room on an M-15 for a dog that barks at passing boats and when I am trimming the jib sheets to come about. Steve M-15 # 335
-----Original Message----- From: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 7:50 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner - M17 Poppy
Les- I almost hauled my Sage to Tahoe after the Monterey race to wash the salt off, but never got it off the ground (pun intended). Be a nice place to float around for a week or so and get out of the Sac Valley heat. I've done a bazillion outrigger canoe races there, mostly the Carnelian Bay end; if you go there next July I might be interested. I've got an old girlfriend who has a cabin at S Tahoe who would probably join me for a while, then she gets tired of me.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 7:40 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Owner - M17 Poppy
Welcome Les, congrats on the M-17!
I just passed through Reno yesterday. Definitely not great sailing weather...just around freezing and a skiff (not the boat kind) of snow overnight.
I'll be curious to hear about your Tahoe cruising. There's not a lot of anchorages there it would seem to me...all pretty wide open except for Emerald bay. But would be some gorgeous sailing. I have thought about taking my M17 there some day (originally from Albany in the Bay area, now living in Ashland in southern OR).
cheers, John
On 11/29/2018 10:35 AM, Les Schuldt wrote:
Hello Montysians, I was fortunate enough to snap up Mitch Carnes ?Grace? (now renamed ?Poppy? for my granddaughter). Briefly owned by Craig Smith, she is the boat featured in Craig?s M15-M17 comparison video, (Youtube ibcontent). I only had a chance to sail her a few times before the weather turned cool here in Reno, but I?m hoping to join a few others for a week at Lake Havasu, then on to the Lake Pleasant Messabout. I?ve sailed, raced, lived aboard, and restored wooden and fiberglass boats for the last 30 years on S.F. Bay. As a long-time fan of Lyle Hess designs, I think the Montgomery is going to be the perfect boat for my new home in the Sierras. I?ve already blocked off a month next summer to spend aboard exploring Lake Tahoe.
Looking forward to meeting you all, Les & Ingrid Schuldt Reno, Nevada
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 13 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 10:38:06 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers Message-ID: <31afb48e-5d21-d452-bd8f-23da09bfee66@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Thanks Connie,
There's also a toggle between chainplate and turnbuckle of course.
The standing rigging on the boat when I got it had nicopress/thimble at both upper and lower ends of all stay & shroud wires. So at the lower (turnbuckle) ends, the thimble connects to a toggle-jaw (T-toggle) on the turnbuckles.
I've since replaced the forestay and backstay, to accommodate the roller reefing jib & improve/adjust mast rake. So those are now eye toggles at masthead and swaged studs at upper side of turnbuckles.
Shrouds are still the thimble-nicopress-toggle-jaw combo however.
Very good info about the cotter pins. I had forgotten, but when I'd seen cotter pins used by "professionals" in machining operations, it was done as you describe from the S&S article. Trimmed to proper length, smoothed, spread just enough to hold, not bent back.
I am using cotter rings wherever possible, which reduces snagging somewhat.
cheers, John
On 12/06/2018 07:55 AM, Conbert Benneck wrote:
Hi John,
If I understand you correctly, you have a toggle between the upper end of your turnbuckle and the shroud.
The toggle should be between the chainplate and the bottom of the shroud turnbuckle.
The shroud then attaches directly to the upper part of the turnbuckle.
The toggle is put there (between turnbuckle and chainplate) to act as a universal joint.? Then, no matter how the rig might move, no bending moments can be put on the turnbuckle itself (which might bend the lower part of the turnbuckle making it inoperable).
_________________________
_Cotter Pins_
Many years ago I read an article written by Sparkman & Stephens on how to correctly use cotter pins.? It was an eye-opener.
When you buy cotter pins they are much too long. Just like every other sailor I used to bend them way back and then wrap tape over them to protect sails and sheets.
The S&S article explained that I was doing it all wrong.
Their "correct" method was to cut off a cotter pin so that it is about clevis pin diameter + 1/2 clevis pin diameter ( or a bit more).? So if you are using a 1/4" clevis pin, your cotter pin should be about 3/8" long.
Now you take a file and round off the end of the cotter pin, as well as rounding off the outer edges; making the end spherical in shape.
Now, when you insert the cotter pin in the hole in the clevis pin, only about an 1/8th of an inch protrudes. You now gently spread the end of the cotter pin open? about 15 degrees.
The cotter pin will now stay firmly in place; but can easily be removed with a slight pinch with a pair of pliers; and, is infinitely reusable.
With no sharp cotter pin ends to catch sails or sheets this may be your solution.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? --------------------------
_Shroud rollers_
I think you can make some yourself using some suitably sized? plastic pipe.
You'll need a plug with a hole at each end as a means to center the pipe on the shroud but you should be able to design and build one and try it out.? If you have a problem, then modify your design.? This sounds like a one Martini design project.
Ciao,
Connie
On 12/5/2018 10:35 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks Dave & Jerry...
Doesn't the Gorilla tape leave an awful mess (like duct tape) when you take it off? I've used it for other things and if it's been on for long, especially in warm weather, it leaves a sticky mess behind, like duct tape.
Also, to further clarify my situation - my shrouds have toggle-jaw to thimbles & nicopress on the upper sides, not swaged studs (came that way). That's what catches the sheet and/or jib edge as much or more than the turnbuckles themselves. Especially now that I have a higher-cut cruising genny. So just taping the turnbuckles won't do much good.
How about a simple piece of plastic pipe over the lower part? The commercial products seem to be some expensive version of that (except for the soft ones of leather or synthetic fabric).
Re spreader boots/rollers: My spreaders are the floppy kind - a u-shaped SS bracket on each side of mast,held with bolt thru mast, and spreader tubes pivot on bolt thru u-brackets. The outboard ends of tubes have a cast aluminum piece with a slot for the wire and a cotter pin hole across end of slot to capture the wire. So main issue is cotter pin or equivalent (sharp metal) at end of spreader outside shroud. I will look into using something smooth in place of the cotter pin...
A friend has the jib rollers on a larger boat and I like how they work. Better idea than boots it seems to me. Keeps sail off spreader end and also helps it roll over/past. I've had my jib leach catch on the rubber boots in light air, another shortcoming of those.
thanks, John
On 12/05/2018 07:58 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
John- What I do is to use Gorilla tape, which is 2" wide and now available in white.? I just wrap it on the bottom; it'll cover the bottom of the barrel to keep it from turning, and also the pin on the bottom tang, which will help keep the jibsheet from hanging up on it in a drifter.? I keep a roll on the boat because it great for taping telltails.
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 7:30 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers,spreader boots/rollers
John:
Get 3M '35' heavy duty electrical tape.? Wrap the turnbuckles so JUST the cotter pins are covered leaving the bodies open (no trapped water to cause crevice corrosion). This means each turnbuckle has two tape bands: one for the upper swage fitting pin and one for the lower t-bolt pin. Replace yearly (you should be taking the pins out and twisting the turnbuckles a few threads back and forth each way to assure you don't get any rusting and fusing the turnbuckles).
IMO no need for boots on the spreaders.?? As you wrote all types interfere with raising/lowering mast and huge overkill for the Mboats. Which speader design do you have?? Fixed or the swinging?? Captive uppers at the spreader ends or held in place with a strand if rigging wire?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 7:18 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Hi all,
A couple things I want to get in place, or improve, for next season, on my M17.
Anyone have a particular shroud/turnbuckle cover product (or DIY method) they can recommend (meaning you've used it and it works well for you)? I want to be done with jib sheet and/or jib edge catching on turnbuckles/lower shrouds (not to mention want to be done with the wear & tear on sheets & sail).
Same question re spreader boots or jib rollers. Has anyone used the Forespar jib roller or Harken chafe protector roller on your shrouds? They are spec'd for 3/16" and up wire, but I imagine a bushing could be used on 1/8" wire. Saw these rollers in action on a friend's larger boat and seems all around smarter approach than spreader boots. Can't find anyone making a smaller roller for 1/8" wire but if you know of one please point me to it.
I have tried the rubber spreader boots (taylor made or whitecap brands) and IMO they suck; too stiff of material, poor fit, etc..
thanks, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design --------------------------------------------
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 14 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 10:52:54 -0800 From: <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers Message-ID: <B7D48A623D1343BF94E322372C438CAF@CH002914> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response
I haven't had a problem with Gorilla tape sticking things up, but lacquer thinner would cut it like butter.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 8:35 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers, spreader boots/rollers
Thanks Dave & Jerry...
Doesn't the Gorilla tape leave an awful mess (like duct tape) when you take it off? I've used it for other things and if it's been on for long, especially in warm weather, it leaves a sticky mess behind, like duct tape.
Also, to further clarify my situation - my shrouds have toggle-jaw to thimbles & nicopress on the upper sides, not swaged studs (came that way). That's what catches the sheet and/or jib edge as much or more than the turnbuckles themselves. Especially now that I have a higher-cut cruising genny. So just taping the turnbuckles won't do much good.
How about a simple piece of plastic pipe over the lower part? The commercial products seem to be some expensive version of that (except for the soft ones of leather or synthetic fabric).
Re spreader boots/rollers: My spreaders are the floppy kind - a u-shaped SS bracket on each side of mast,held with bolt thru mast, and spreader tubes pivot on bolt thru u-brackets. The outboard ends of tubes have a cast aluminum piece with a slot for the wire and a cotter pin hole across end of slot to capture the wire. So main issue is cotter pin or equivalent (sharp metal) at end of spreader outside shroud. I will look into using something smooth in place of the cotter pin...
A friend has the jib rollers on a larger boat and I like how they work. Better idea than boots it seems to me. Keeps sail off spreader end and also helps it roll over/past. I've had my jib leach catch on the rubber boots in light air, another shortcoming of those.
thanks, John
On 12/05/2018 07:58 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
John- What I do is to use Gorilla tape, which is 2" wide and now available in white. I just wrap it on the bottom; it'll cover the bottom of the barrel to keep it from turning, and also the pin on the bottom tang, which will help keep the jibsheet from hanging up on it in a drifter. I keep a roll on the boat because it great for taping telltails.
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 7:30 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for turnbuckle covers,spreader boots/rollers
John:
Get 3M '35' heavy duty electrical tape. Wrap the turnbuckles so JUST the cotter pins are covered leaving the bodies open (no trapped water to cause crevice corrosion). This means each turnbuckle has two tape bands: one for the upper swage fitting pin and one for the lower t-bolt pin. Replace yearly (you should be taking the pins out and twisting the turnbuckles a few threads back and forth each way to assure you don't get any rusting and fusing the turnbuckles).
IMO no need for boots on the spreaders. As you wrote all types interfere with raising/lowering mast and huge overkill for the Mboats. Which speader design do you have? Fixed or the swinging? Captive uppers at the spreader ends or held in place with a strand if rigging wire?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 7:18 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Hi all,
A couple things I want to get in place, or improve, for next season, on my M17.
Anyone have a particular shroud/turnbuckle cover product (or DIY method) they can recommend (meaning you've used it and it works well for you)? I want to be done with jib sheet and/or jib edge catching on turnbuckles/lower shrouds (not to mention want to be done with the wear & tear on sheets & sail).
Same question re spreader boots or jib rollers. Has anyone used the Forespar jib roller or Harken chafe protector roller on your shrouds? They are spec'd for 3/16" and up wire, but I imagine a bushing could be used on 1/8" wire. Saw these rollers in action on a friend's larger boat and seems all around smarter approach than spreader boots. Can't find anyone making a smaller roller for 1/8" wire but if you know of one please point me to it.
I have tried the rubber spreader boots (taylor made or whitecap brands) and IMO they suck; too stiff of material, poor fit, etc..
thanks, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design --------------------------------------------
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
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