May 2020 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

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22 May '20

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22 May '20

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Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
by David Grah 22 May '20

22 May '20

Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right. There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight. I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower. David GrahBishop California Message: 3 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 12:33:02 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john(a)eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 Message-ID: <265d552f-eb30-27f0-11ea-ee3c61bf235a(a)eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Last year I did some practical real-world tests of my Honda 2.3 hp long shaft on my 1974 M17. This was at Fern Ridge reservoir near Eugene, OR, where conditions ranged from completely glassy to whitecaps and gusts 20+. My conclusion was that as an auxiliary, the 2.3 is enough motor for an M17. Including with a furling jib (which I have) - a bit more windage forward than hank-on. In light air to glassy conditions, my results were: At the minimum throttle to fully engage the clutch, I was cruising at ~3 knots. At about 1/3 throttle - roughly where the 'start' position (little rabbit symbol) is on the throttle - I was cruising at ~4 knots. Next morning in completely glassy conditions I repeated the tests - same results as above. Then I went up to half throttle, which got me up to 4.7-4.8 knots. NOTE we are getting up to 3/4 or maybe 4/5 of hull speed here... More throttle had, as expected when getting close to hull speed, rapidly diminishing returns, adding at most .2 knots as I put it up to ~3/4 throttle. The motor being new and not even close to broken in per Honda's recommendations, I didn't want to run it any higher at that point. Third day was quite windy all day until late afternoon. 15-20+ with gusts probably to 25. I motored out and tried the same throttle settings direct into the heavy wind and chop, and also at quartering angles. On average I lost only .5-.6 knot of speed from the strong headwinds. So for example the 1/3 throttle that gave 4 knots in calm/glassy gave ~3.5 knots into the wind. Half throttle would give ~4.1-4.2 knots instead of 4.7-4.8. The strongest gusts would briefly take that down another .1 knot. I then sailed for a while, with reefed main and as much jib rolled out as I felt comfortable with. Did consistently 4-5 knots, maxed out at 5.6 knots at some point. I had expected more of a hit on speed into the wind actually, with the "small" motor. So I'm pretty happy, at 31 lbs and high simplicity and what seems like great fuel economy, with a Honda 2.3 on my M17. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com ------------------------------

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outboard questions
by Rob Bultman 21 May '20

21 May '20

I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? Thanks, Rob

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New member
by John Taussig 21 May '20

21 May '20

Bought “Sweet Pea” M-17 from Dave Scobie last year. Renamed Sick Chicken - I live on Lake Sammamish WA from Sept to June but this year moving to Bellingham WA for 3 months. Looking forward to sailing and exploring Puget Sound. Used to race a S-2 7.9 but getting old quickly and now just enjoy sailing and racing boats that don’t even know we are racing! Hah! John Sent from my iPhone

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More motor stuff
by Henry Rodriguez 21 May '20

21 May '20

I appreciated John's comments about his M17 with the motor cut out and the additional lifting mount. My boat has the motor notch and also came with a lifting mount but the transom was totally destroyed, delaminated, when I got the boat (see pictures on msogphotosite.) So I decided not to reinstall the SS mount. Now I'm inclined to put it back on after all. The long shaft (20") of my 2-stroke Yamaha/Mariner 5hp is barely long enough. It works fine when I am in the cockpit but if I step out of the boat onto a dock the exhaust starts to come out of the water. If I step on the foredeck it lifts higher and gets really loud! So I'm thinking the solution is either an extra long shaft (25") motor or a lifting mount. The Mariner is light (46.9 lb on my bathroom scale) compared to current 4-strokes but I am still reluctant to put that weight further aft. I need the FNR gears that lighter weight motors don't provide. I'm getting too old and crotchety and my reaction times are too slow to fiddle with spinning a motor 360° for reverse when other things are going on. 🥴 Another drawback of using the transom notch is that the motor head blocks the sweep of the tiller, keeping me from putting it hard over. Not a problem for normal sailing but I sometimes need to do so when shooting into the wind to pick up my mooring. Then I have to loosen the tiller lock lines and lift the tiller very high to clear the motor. I had read that Jerry designed the transom cut out with the 70s Evinrude/Johnson 4hp in mind. So I've been watching Craigslist and eBay for one for the last 4 years. I finally found one last fall at a good price, an Evinrude 4hp Deluxe with long shaft and FNR. These things run forever! It is smoother and quieter than the Yamaha thanks to it's 2 cylinders vs 1. But it is a bit fatter, taking up more space in the notch which does not allow it to turn more than a few degrees to assist with steering. It is also heavier than the Yamaha at 54.5lb. The shaft length is exactly the same and I have the same issues with the exhaust coming out of the water when I go forward. So I went back to the Mariner/Yamaha. Still looking for the "perfect (for me)" motor. I'll probably end up keeping the Mariner and installing the lifting mount eventually. I know, everything is a compromise. What compromises have you made, and why? Henry Monita

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Re: M_Boats: Auxiliary power
by Dave Scobie 20 May '20

20 May '20

Rusty: Maybe the seat height on the Gig Harbor SCAMP is higher? I found the height fine just the oars were overall bad (in length and shape). :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Wed, May 20, 2020, 2:45 PM Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Typical conditions for the channel, a million asshole powerboats screaming > by in the no wake zone, ebb tide at 3-4 knots, moderate chop from shoaling > out at the southern tip of Jetty Island. > > I’ve rowed my SCAMP through there before when becalmed, but it was the end > of the day on a slack tide, so very calm conditions. The hull moves just > fine, but the seat is too low, and those oars SUCK. I’m going to replace > them once I’ve gotten the rest of the boat dialed in. I’ve been talking to > Howard and John about getting the SCAMP dialed in better for rowing. New > oars are priority one but I don’t have the spare 4 to 7 hundred dollars > laying around. And I don’t really want to row that damn thing if I don’t > have to anyway, I bought it to sail! > > I’ve been doing quite a lot of rowing lately, both on an erg and on an > Adirondack Guideboat 14’ Kevlar Dory. The pinned oars on the dory took > some getting used to, but I like them now. I won’t go that route for the > SCAMP of course, but I’m starting to see the advantage of them for the > dory. It rows so beautifully. Last time out sailing I was wishing I was > rowing my dory, and I never in a million years thought I would say that! > 🚣‍♂️ > > I always think of Lin and Larry cruising through the islands too. They > were fortunate enough to make their own schedule and plan the trip > accordingly. I helped them move their boat from the customs dock in > Victoria to a slip once. It was the worlds shortest sail, and one of the > highlights of my life, I’ll never forget it. > > Stay safe and healthy, Dave. > > Rusty > > > > www.rustyknorr.weebly.com > > On May 20, 2020, at 12:22 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > What was the sea conditions Rusty? I rowed Jackie Monie's Gig Harbor > SCAMP 'Cowboy Cookies' most of the way from the NWMartime Center dock to > Boat Haven, Port Townsend without much trouble. The seat height was fine > but the oars provided by Gig Harbor boatworks sucked. Sea conditions were > mostly flat ... not a breath of wind. > > PNW currents must be respected. During the second R2AK leg one many boats > didn't get to Victoria before the tide went flood in light winds. These > boats, including one SCAMP, were swept north into Haro Strait. Many > grounded on San Juan Island. > > I always reminds myself that Lin and Larry Parday did cruise the Gulf and > San Juan Islands engineless ... they had sailed around the world at that > point so had some practice first. That and Larry having grown up around the > Gulf Islands. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ > > > On Wed, May 20, 2020, 11:52 AM Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > >> For those who love the romance of going without an outboard... >> I was sailing my SCAMP in light wind in the Everett channel on Friday. I >> always sail on and off the dock if I can, and carry oars for when I can’t. >> I always had my Honda 2.3 on my M15 but I haven’t used the motor on the >> SCAMP yet. Anyway, I got to the south end of the channel and was becalmed >> on a strong foul tide. I rowed my ass off and barely made it back into the >> channel without being swept out into the bay. In Puget Sound you need to >> really know your tides and currents and understand the wind can disappear >> despite the forecast, and have a reliable auxiliary of some kind. I don’t >> like bringing a kicker, but it really is the prudent choice in some areas. >> >> Rusty >> >> www.rustyknorr.weebly.com >> >> >> >>

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Unsubscribe
by Brandon Mercer 20 May '20

20 May '20

Thank you all for the great ideas. I ended up not being able to buy a Monty, so I'm unsubscribing. Brandon Mercer Cell Phone: (415) 636-1912 brandonmmercer(a)gmail.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/mercerbrandon

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Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
by John Schinnerer 20 May '20

20 May '20

Last year I did some practical real-world tests of my Honda 2.3 hp long shaft on my 1974 M17. This was at Fern Ridge reservoir near Eugene, OR, where conditions ranged from completely glassy to whitecaps and gusts 20+. My conclusion was that as an auxiliary, the 2.3 is enough motor for an M17. Including with a furling jib (which I have) - a bit more windage forward than hank-on. In light air to glassy conditions, my results were: At the minimum throttle to fully engage the clutch, I was cruising at ~3 knots. At about 1/3 throttle - roughly where the 'start' position (little rabbit symbol) is on the throttle - I was cruising at ~4 knots. Next morning in completely glassy conditions I repeated the tests - same results as above. Then I went up to half throttle, which got me up to 4.7-4.8 knots. NOTE we are getting up to 3/4 or maybe 4/5 of hull speed here... More throttle had, as expected when getting close to hull speed, rapidly diminishing returns, adding at most .2 knots as I put it up to ~3/4 throttle. The motor being new and not even close to broken in per Honda's recommendations, I didn't want to run it any higher at that point. Third day was quite windy all day until late afternoon. 15-20+ with gusts probably to 25. I motored out and tried the same throttle settings direct into the heavy wind and chop, and also at quartering angles. On average I lost only .5-.6 knot of speed from the strong headwinds. So for example the 1/3 throttle that gave 4 knots in calm/glassy gave ~3.5 knots into the wind. Half throttle would give ~4.1-4.2 knots instead of 4.7-4.8. The strongest gusts would briefly take that down another .1 knot. I then sailed for a while, with reefed main and as much jib rolled out as I felt comfortable with. Did consistently 4-5 knots, maxed out at 5.6 knots at some point. I had expected more of a hit on speed into the wind actually, with the "small" motor. So I'm pretty happy, at 31 lbs and high simplicity and what seems like great fuel economy, with a Honda 2.3 on my M17. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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Auxiliary power
by Rusty Knorr 20 May '20

20 May '20

For those who love the romance of going without an outboard... I was sailing my SCAMP in light wind in the Everett channel on Friday. I always sail on and off the dock if I can, and carry oars for when I can’t. I always had my Honda 2.3 on my M15 but I haven’t used the motor on the SCAMP yet. Anyway, I got to the south end of the channel and was becalmed on a strong foul tide. I rowed my ass off and barely made it back into the channel without being swept out into the bay. In Puget Sound you need to really know your tides and currents and understand the wind can disappear despite the forecast, and have a reliable auxiliary of some kind. I don’t like bringing a kicker, but it really is the prudent choice in some areas. Rusty www.rustyknorr.weebly.com

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