October 2016 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

A great product
by Thomas Buzzi 18 Oct '16

18 Oct '16

Hi All, Am working through my "Connie" list of improvements and while foraging through my local ACE hardware store discovered a great product put out by m-d air-sealing tape. It is EPDM rubber gasket material with self stick. It is made in 1/8 thru 1/2 inch increments and comes 8.5 feet long. It can be separated down the middle by simply tearing it apart so you have 17 LF of gasket. I used it on the lip right around the cockpit openings under the hatches and it compresses very well. Also tried it around the forward hatch, again right around the opening under the hatch. Again, water and wind tight. I also used some on the inside forward edge of the main hatch to stop water from sluicing inside of the cabin. There it also results in a gentle (poof) while closing the hatch instead of the "thump" that used to happen. Be sure you have it where you want it before pressing it firmly into place because it will remove paint that is not firmly in place. Addendum to using the furniture leg stops to cushion overhead nuts and bolts, if the stickum on the back of the pad ever decides to let go, a dab of contact cement on the surface of the pad and the surface it used to stick to will insure it stays in place. Fair winds, Tom B.

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Some Waldo lake pix
by John Schinnerer 15 Oct '16

15 Oct '16

A few shots from my recent Waldo lake trip. Ghosting; cruising; morning dew on coaming; nice anchorage. cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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Help with M17 centerboard stop pin and leak
by John Schinnerer 14 Oct '16

14 Oct '16

Hi all, After last trip to Waldo lake, boat sitting on trailer in driveway for some days, I noticed a small damp spot under the aft end of the keel (didn't notice it right away because it was raining off and on and there were drips various places from water running down the hull). A bit of a rust color to the stain, but also some dark metallic color. First I thought it was from a trailer beam drain hole in that vicinity. On closer inspection, a very very slow slow drip of water was coming from just aft of the back edge of the CB slot. Timed it today and it is about one drip every 3 minutes. Some pictures attached... Crawling under & feeling around and looking with flashlight etc. revealed that the moisture is coming from the port side of the slot, around where the CB stop pin is. There is some dirty-metal looking gritty material there that comes off on my finger when I rub it, like corroding metal surface. Also a bit of rusty color. The water runs down from around where the pin enters port side of CB slot and then back along the edge of the slot and past the aft end of the slot an inch or so before forming a drop. The starboard side of the inside of the trunk where the pin goes through is dry. There are some surface cracks/fissures (visible in some pics) but I think they are just that - crazing of paint or gelcoat, minor scrapes from light grounding, etc.. Water does not appear to come from those; when I wipe it all dry, it just runs down from the pin/keel interface area on port side. It almost looks like there is a metal "U" shape embedded at the rear of the CB slot - face/thin edge of U down towards ground, bottom of U towards stern, as if to reinforce where the pin goes...? I read what I could find on the MSOG regular and photo sites about CB repair jobs and related. Only a few references to the stop pin. Sounds like the stop pin - what it is (bolt, screw, rod, etc.) and how it's installed - varies from boat to boat somewhat. This is #38, 1974. There are no exposed pin ends. There is a very slight bulge where the pin would go through, on the starboard side. The port side is all smooth, no visible pin end location. Conclusions so far: Water coming out of there likely had to go in there. Presumably a tiny fissure or hairline crack or corroded piece of something to do with the stop pin (or combo of those) allowing water to seep slowly, slowly in that part of the keel when boat is in water. Then it seeps slowly, slowly out when it's on the hard. Don't recall seeing this after four weeks in Howard Prairie Lake in July. Don't recall if it was happening after 3 1/2 days in Fern Ridge lake (three weeks ago)...maybe, maybe not... So it may have just started. Any thoughts? Anyone had a similar situation? Had to work on something like this? I'm thinking at the least I'm going to have to do a little exploratory grinding for the pin end(s), figure out how it went in, how to get it out, and then explore that port side of the hole to find whatever the leak is and fix it. I am keeping all my digits crossed that whatever cavity is around or adjacent to that pin end does not connect to the part of the keel where the steel punching ballast is. Any info on that (for better or worse) appreciated also. thanks, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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Re: M_Boats: Help with M17 centerboard stop pin and leak
by David Grah 13 Oct '16

13 Oct '16

Agreed. This sort of information is one of the most valuable things about this group. Message: 4 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 15:21:33 -0600 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie(a)gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Help with M17 centerboard stop pin and leak Message-ID: <CAGjBOA5rENrrbV3OCe4HiiG6Kp0kZDh13-P98wmXWityc=L5nQ(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Great share Chesley. Projects are the same on M15, M17 and M23 ... just differences in 'scale' between the boats. :: Dave Scobie On Oct 12, 2016 5:18 PM, "Chesley Sugg" <csugg(a)mindspring.com> wrote: > John, > > Here's a keel repair on a M15. Probably much the same. > > https://plus.google.com/photos/104382335680677118827/ > albums/5058997729451769937?banner=pwa > > > Chesley Sugg, M15, M17 >

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Florida pan handle sailing + free rudder!
by Richard Everett 09 Oct '16

09 Oct '16

Hi again everyone. We have made our way through Georgia and after looking at some rather crowded options for RV parks on the gulf in Florida, we decided to rent a 2bd house in Carrabelle for a month! The house is only a couple of blocks from Moorings of Carrabelle marina on the mouth of the Carrabelle river as it dumps out into the gulf. I think we will put our M17 in there so we can sail and fish around Dog Island/St. George Island whenever we want. I have been eyeing the discussion of keeping a M17 in salt water so maybe we will haul it out every week to spray it off. Anyway, if any of you are in that area for the month of October/early November and want to pair up for sailing, it would be a blast. Also, we have on order a folding rudder from Ruddercraft and so our wooden original rudder (2005 M17) and tiller will be available for free. It is in good condition (can take pics) but we just don't have room in our RV to haul it around once we get the folding rudder. If you want it shipped, you have to pay for packing and all shipping charges. The last lake we sailed on (Lake Blackshear in Georgia) was quite shallow at the shore and we had to totally remove the wooden rudder in order to beach our boat every time. That was the final straw to push me to get a folding rudder. Rick and Debora M17 #635 Eidolon

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Re: M_Boats: reefing setups
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 08 Oct '16

08 Oct '16

There would only be Two lines for the forward reefs as the cunningham is typically used on the flattening reef. (I use stand alone cunni (4:1 for forward reef downhaul - saves hardware on the limited boom real estate. Hard to tell what intermediate owners use/remove or modify over the years?!?! In a message dated 10/7/2016 10:56:35 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, john(a)eco-living.net writes: On 10/06/2016 11:53 AM, David Rifkind wrote: ... > I’m curious how you handle multiple reefs. My main has only one. I > assume you don’t have three full sets of reefing tackle on the boom. > What do you do with them? So far I have only used the first reef - what GO said might be a "flattening" reef. It takes a decent bite out of sail area and seems to match very well with the "small" jib that came with the boat. And it does flatten the main some compared to no reef. There are two cheek blocks and two horn cleats on starboard side of my boom. The horn cleats I plan to replace with jam cleats for quickness and ease - making fast with good outhaul tension on a horn cleat with sail and boom bouncing around in rising wind is less than optimal. The upside is, they provide something to wrap the excess reefing line around...which a jam cleat doesn't...what have others done for this conundrum? Interesting GO what you said about a "flattening reef" - because the cheek blocks do not seem to be positioned right for what I was assuming was the "first" and "second" reef (I figured the block & cleat for the 2nd would also be used for the 3rd, or, that nobody had ever put on a block & cleat for the 3rd). The rear-most cheek block, which I assumed was for the "first" reef, is not far enough aft to give an effective outhaul for the first reef. But it would be well located for the "second" reef. Likewise the other cheek block is not aft enough for the apparent "second" reef, but clearly is aft enough for the "third" reef. So I think you've clarified why that is...I was one off in my thinking, those two blocks are for the 2nd and 3rd reef, not the 1st and 2nd. So to use my "first" (flattening?) reef, I've just run the regular outhaul through the first reef grommet, using the same end-of-boom block as for full main. Which is a bit less convenient than I'd like. So I'm pondering how to have a quick-n-easy setup for that first/flattening reef. cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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Re: M_Boats: reefing
by Dave Scobie 08 Oct '16

08 Oct '16

David. Post pictures of boom and lower portion of the mast. I'll get you sorted and reefing in less than thirty seconds. (Reefing takes a lot less time than typing this email on my phone). :: Dave Scobie On Oct 7, 2016 1:27 PM, "David Rifkind" <drifkind(a)acm.org> wrote: > On Oct 6, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Keith R. Martin <keith.richard.martin@gmail. com> wrote: > > I have 3 reefs in my main and have all 3 sets of cheek blocks and cleats > on my boom so that the reefing system is completely contained on the boom. > I prefer a 2 line reefing system with an individual lines so the boom is a > little busy but a choice of small cleats and harken micro cheek blocks > makes it all work pretty well… There’s no gear at all on the mast end of my boom for reefing. All I’ve done is unthread the downhaul and put it through the kringle on the sail. It works but the boom drops all the way down. Maybe I’d be better off with a gasket or hook to attach the kringle to the boom. There’s a spot on the side of the boom where some piece of hardware was removed at one time, but I have no idea what it was.

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Re: M_Boats: reefing setups
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 07 Oct '16

07 Oct '16

You need to tie in a loop thru the reef cringle and around the boom if you elect to not add more hardware for the use of the flattening reef - or add MORE hardware - That is why they call it a BOOM! I have converted to 'less hardware - more use of line or soft attachments' philosophy as our boats and spars are very small/I am too cheap to buy new hardware and 'soft' is more flexible and less weight. 'Google' soft shackles, soft attachments for sail rigging or related for ideas. Have fUn, go sailing GO In a message dated 10/7/2016 10:56:35 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, john(a)eco-living.net writes: On 10/06/2016 11:53 AM, David Rifkind wrote: ... > I’m curious how you handle multiple reefs. My main has only one. I > assume you don’t have three full sets of reefing tackle on the boom. > What do you do with them? So far I have only used the first reef - what GO said might be a "flattening" reef. It takes a decent bite out of sail area and seems to match very well with the "small" jib that came with the boat. And it does flatten the main some compared to no reef. There are two cheek blocks and two horn cleats on starboard side of my boom. The horn cleats I plan to replace with jam cleats for quickness and ease - making fast with good outhaul tension on a horn cleat with sail and boom bouncing around in rising wind is less than optimal. The upside is, they provide something to wrap the excess reefing line around...which a jam cleat doesn't...what have others done for this conundrum? Interesting GO what you said about a "flattening reef" - because the cheek blocks do not seem to be positioned right for what I was assuming was the "first" and "second" reef (I figured the block & cleat for the 2nd would also be used for the 3rd, or, that nobody had ever put on a block & cleat for the 3rd). The rear-most cheek block, which I assumed was for the "first" reef, is not far enough aft to give an effective outhaul for the first reef. But it would be well located for the "second" reef. Likewise the other cheek block is not aft enough for the apparent "second" reef, but clearly is aft enough for the "third" reef. So I think you've clarified why that is...I was one off in my thinking, those two blocks are for the 2nd and 3rd reef, not the 1st and 2nd. So to use my "first" (flattening?) reef, I've just run the regular outhaul through the first reef grommet, using the same end-of-boom block as for full main. Which is a bit less convenient than I'd like. So I'm pondering how to have a quick-n-easy setup for that first/flattening reef. cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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Re: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 07 Oct '16

07 Oct '16

John, Nice looking Boat ! ! ! GO In a message dated 10/3/2016 1:02:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, john(a)eco-living.net writes: A few shots from my recent Waldo lake trip. Ghosting; cruising; morning dew on coaming; nice anchorage. cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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Re: M_Boats: M17 sails
by GILASAILR＠aol.com 07 Oct '16

07 Oct '16

John, >From what I see from your photo - the lower set of reef cringles appear to be a 'flattening reef' - - not so common to see them lately, but they were in vogue in the seventies. The reef if viewed parallel to the boom, will be deeper at the aft end of the boom. The idea is to flatten the mainsail by removing a large portion of the draft and maintain most of the sail area. A helpful feature - just not real common on small boats. Looks like you have missing or damaged battens at the second and third pockets (can't see the top one in pix) On a related note, and not directed to your boat in particular - the performance of our boats - ALL sailing abilities, directly corresponds to the quality of the sails - well cared for sails are of paramount importance in making a boat sail to its potential. The fact that a sail has no tears/stains or torn seams are not the only indications of a sails usefulness. Older 'worn sails' are like old tires - yes, you can drive down to the corner store on the threadbare tires but they will not allow for safe braking/handling - a sail that has been stretched beyond the designed shape will encourage poor handling in the boat - draft aft or excessivedaft in head or mainsails, loose leech/foot will translate to poor pointing, excess weather helm and poor speed. Age of sails does not positively correlate to a good experience like an old trusted friend. About 'Speed' - we know not everyone is concerned with speed. Sails in less than good designed shape degrade a boats performance on all levels. They will cause the boat to point poorly and make a destination harder to acquire, encourage excess heeling which produces excess weather helm and loss of control at higher wind speeds. No one likes to drive a 'sloppy' car - it is a bit harder to compare a boat in good condition (sails) than it is to get in my wife's newer lower mileage car - and compare the experience. IMHO best bang for the $ is NEW Quality sails - we all have our favorite sailmakers.For a treat to yourself and your sailing safety/experience why not try a new headsail - a nice 110% for example - most of us as sailors would welcome the experience of higher quality handling and performance. This is not a personal 'rag' on your particular case - just me 'P*ssin' in the wind' about the age/quality of many of our (mine included) sails on our boats. I have a full suit of Reggie Armstrongs (they WERE good++), a suit of middle age/old Norths for day'cruising and recent Ullmans for racing - or when I need to 'feel good' about the boats performance) Support a good local or global sailmaker - NFIW - I would just like to see more grins on Monty sailors when they break out a new sail!! PS - ROLL THEM IF YOU GOT "EM (new sails that is) - roll them parallel to the foot - please don't fold or wad them up- proper storage encourages many more grins going forward as your sail will be the better for proper storage. End of unsolicited rant and worth every penny.{:>) GO In a message dated 10/4/2016 1:40:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, john(a)eco-living.net writes: Speaking of sails...a few questions about M17 suite of sails. My M17 from 1974 came with the newer main with three reefs, all good there. I also got the "small" jib, which indicates on its bag that it is best used with the first reef in the main. It's not a full on storm jib. It does work very well with first reef in main. Also works OK with full main when the "big" jib would be overpowered - speaking of which... And, I got the "big" jib, which on its bag indicates that it is the "cruising" genoa. I assume (but don't know for sure) that it's the 150% "normal" cruising jib for the M17. First off, is that the "OEM" set of jibs, those two? Second off, is there something in between those two, either OEM or that anyone has found appropriate from experience? It's a pretty big gap between the two, in terms of sail area. Seems like an intermediate size would be more versatile for a range of wind conditions than just the rather small or the very big options...? Or maybe I'm missing something basic about the nature of the M17 rig. Any info/experiences appreciated. cheers, John S. On 10/04/2016 12:11 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: > Yeah, I was pretty pleased to acquire a newer main with three reefs with > the boat. > So far I've only used the first reef...not sure I want to be out on the > water when the third might be required! Glad to have the option though. > > The 'small' jib has the Reggie Armstrong label on it, yes. It is rather > stretched, and flappy in the leach, probably the original. > > I need to look again at the cruising jib (the big one) as I can't recall > what maker was on it if any. I've only used it a few times so far. > > cheers, > John S. > > On 10/04/2016 08:49 AM, swwheatley(a)comcast.net wrote: >> Yes, early M17s usually carried Reggie Armstrong sails so your jib >> probably is original and your main is not. >> >> At 42 years old, that jib has lived almost as many lives as a cat, but >> you probably knew that already. >> >> Interesting that your main has 3 reefs. That 3rd reef would correspond >> with some pretty hardcore sailing. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "John Schinnerer" <john(a)eco-living.net> >> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" >> <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:07:31 PM >> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix >> >> It's an M-17...that may explain part of the difference...I'm 6' 3", if >> it were an M15 I'd have to be 5' 6"! :-) >> >> It's hull #38, built in 1974. The M-17s had transom cutouts for quite a >> while, someone else may know when that changed. >> >> No number on the sail as it's apparently not the original sail, or, >> numbers didn't get put on the original. It's not in great shape, but I >> think it's in too good of shape to be the original. The main is from >> North Sails - does anyone know what maker the original main would have >> been on a '74 M-17? The small jib is Reggie Armstrong which IIRC was an >> early sail supplier? >> >> As to the hull color, I am nearly certain it is not the original. There >> are a few rub spots where a more orange color (not white) shows through. >> I wasn't sure what to make of that, until I looked at the MSOG photo >> site owner registry recently and saw another M17 with original "custom >> gelcoat" hull color given as "Tangerine" (Windsong, here: >> http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=22) which >> in the photos looks pretty close to what is showing through the rub >> spots on my M17. This photo of "Dulce" shows a possibly similar orange-y >> red, prior to the repaint with the red Awlgrip: >> http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/General/imageviewer.php?objectid=25&ob… >> >> >> So I'm guessing I have an original "tangerine" hull gelcoat that at some >> point got painted over with the red you see. You can also see some >> duller looking, more reddish brown blotches here and there - again I'm >> not sure but it looks like they were attempts to cover rubbed areas or >> other small cosmetic finish defects with some other finish that didn't >> work out well visually. I'd love to have her hull perfectly bristol but >> my priority generally goes to sailing time and functional upgrades >> first... :-) >> >> cheers, >> John S. >> >> >> On 10/03/2016 02:29 PM, Steve Trapp wrote: >>> John, >>> Thanx for the Waldo Lake photos. I notice that your M-15 is red and >>> appears to have a cut out opening on the transom, different than my 1985 >>> M-15 that is white with a solid (?) transom. What year was yours built? >>> What are the numbers on your sail? >>> Steve >>> M-15 # 335 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer >>> Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 1:01 PM >>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats >>> Subject: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix >>> >>> A few shots from my recent Waldo lake trip. Ghosting; cruising; morning >>> dew on coaming; nice anchorage. >>> >>> cheers, >>> John S. >>> >> > -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john(a)eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

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