March 2007 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

Re: M_Boats: VHF boost
by Larry E Yake 07 Apr '07

07 Apr '07

I'm impressed, Keith. What is your opinion of the 24" replacement antenna option? Is the 2 meter band frequency OK, and would it double the range of the stock antenna as claimed? Larry On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:14:37 -0600 "Keith Diehl" <kdiehl(a)xmission.com> writes: > I've worked as a system engineer for a major communications > corporation for > more years than I care to mention. Here's my analysis: > > First, are we using the same antenna, but in one case mounting it at > deck > level and in the other case mounting it at masthead level? If so, > then all > we are concerned with is the additional line loss. RG8-X type cable > is a > manageable size and has reasonable loss - about 4 dB per 100 ft at > 100 MHz. > Marine radio operates at 160 MHz, so losses will be a little higher, > let's > call it 5 dB per 100ft. > > (Don't use RG58 or Radio Shack cable or connectors. Buy quality, > name brand, > low-loss cable and get help if you're not sure how to install a > connector. > Weatherproof all connections.) > > How high is your mast? 25 ft? Then loss is only 1.25 dB + maybe 0.5 > dB for > additional connectors to allow removing the mast. Overall, I think > you'd see > an improvement. > > If you're using a handheld radio with a little helical whip antenna, > then > you'll see a big improvement. Those rubber antennas have a loss > relative to > a reference dipole of 6 to 10 dB. A 5/8 wave antenna will be close > to the > gain of a dipole reference. Even with line loss, you should see a > net > improvement of 3 to 7 dB. > > There is a case to be made that you would like your radio to work if > you are > dismasted. There is also the danger of undetected corrosion or > damage to the > antenna and line at the masthead where inspection is difficult. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry E Yake" <leyake(a)juno.com> > To: <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:57 PM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: VHF boost > <<SNIP>> > > > "I doubt the 3db gain -- double the > > radio's radiated power -- from a masthead antenna that's about 18 > feet > > higher than the handheld's antenna will give much of an increase > in > > range. > > <<SNIP>> > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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VHF boost
by Larry E Yake 02 Apr '07

02 Apr '07

I found something in the latest issue of Sail mag that is actually of use to small boat sailors like us. In the "Ask Sail" section a skipper inquired about improving the range of his handheld VHF with a masthead antenna. Their expert (Gordon West) basically shot that down, but added the following: "A better way to improve a handheld's performance is to get a longer antenna for it. Your local marine radio store (or go to www.hamradio.com) should sell 24-inch-long flexible antennas with an SMA connector. Get one for the 2-meter band, which is close enough in frequency to the marine VHF band. Mounting one of these antennas should give you twice the range that you'll get from the standard handheld antenna." I don't think I would want a 24" antenna on my radio all the time, but it would be nice to have one to screw on when you need the extra range. Larry Yake M17 #200 CornDog "In a power boat you get there faster. In a sailboat you're already there."

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Re: M_Boats: VHF boost
by Larry E Yake 31 Mar '07

31 Mar '07

Hi guys, Sorry to keep you waiting on the reasons against the masthead antenna. I should have included it in the original post. Randy pretty much nailed it. Here's Gordon West's answer to that. "Although you have a clever idea, I doubt the 3db gain -- double the radio's radiated power -- from a masthead antenna that's about 18 feet higher than the handheld's antenna will give much of an increase in range. The coax cable and connector losses will also negate any potential added performance. And don't forget that the cable itself will limit the area on board where you can use your handheld. There's also a small chance that the antenna connector might damage something inside your radio." Larry On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:09:31 -0400 "John Tyner" <tynerjr(a)md.metrocast.net> writes: > Larry, > What was the reasoning against connecting the handheld to a > masthead > antenna? I've been thinking of doing this myself. > ~ > John Tyner > M-15 #412 "Chimpanzee" > > -----Original Message----- > From: > montgomery_boats-bounces+tynerjr=md.metrocast.net(a)mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+tynerjr=md.metrocast.net@mailman.xmissi > on.com]On Behalf Of Larry E Yake > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:53 PM > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com; > nwpotters(a)yahoogroups.com > Subject: M_Boats: VHF boost > > > I found something in the latest issue of Sail mag that is actually > of use > to small boat sailors like us. > > In the "Ask Sail" section a skipper inquired about improving the > range > of his handheld VHF with a masthead antenna. Their expert (Gordon > West) > basically shot that down, but added the following: > > "A better way to improve a handheld's performance is to get a > longer > antenna for it. Your local marine radio store (or go to > www.hamradio.com) should sell 24-inch-long flexible antennas with an > SMA > connector. Get one for the 2-meter band, which is close enough in > frequency to the marine VHF band. Mounting one of these antennas > should > give you twice the range that you'll get from the standard handheld > antenna." > > I don't think I would want a 24" antenna on my radio all the time, > but it > would be nice to have one to screw on when you need the extra > range. > > Larry Yake > M17 #200 > CornDog > "In a power boat you get there faster. > In a sailboat you're already there." > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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Re: M_Boats: VHF boost
by Larry E Yake 31 Mar '07

31 Mar '07

Ha Ha! Must be something about working in a technology industry that makes one want to go old school on their recreation time. On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:22:51 -0700 "Tom Smith" <openboatt(a)gmail.com> writes: > > I've never experienced coax cable and connector losses with my > signal flags, > Larry. t > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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Small Craft Advisor causing Flashbacks!!!
by Nebwest2＠aol.com 31 Mar '07

31 Mar '07

Just got my latest copy of SCA in the mail. Thumbing through it from back to front (why? I don't know I just always do it that way!) I shuddered as I cam across page 23 and shots of an unmistakable Monty centerboard on a workbench in pretty rough shape. I quick turned the page to page 20/21 to find that it wasn't a bad dream about Dauntless come true, but rather an M17's board I was looking at! Phew!! I'm hoping not to have to repeat that process for a long, long time! (if ever). I had to laugh when 'Jo and I looked at the photos on Dauntless' webpage and saw how similar they are to the ones in the article in SCA. It wasn't that long ago that she (Dauntless) was sitting on jacks in the back yard with all my friends taking bets on when and if she'd ever see the water again! hahaha Can't say as I blame them. There were a few times when I wondered myself. If you are reading this and facing a similar job on your Monty...Keep the faith!!! It was all worth it! And.....don't hesitate to ask for help from all the awesome people in the MSOG group. I couldn't have done it without them!!! Of course as always there's a great article by Jerry in there as well. Gotta love SCA!!! Who's going to the Cruiser Challenge July 28-29 in Monterey??? Love to attend it but not sure if we can make it yet. Sure would be nice to make a good Monty showing there! Sean and 'Jo M23 "Dauntless" ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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Re: Spring is here
by John R. Butler 31 Mar '07

31 Mar '07

It is Spring all year around here in the Ozarks. Except when it is hot in the summer, or freezing in the winter (but my lake never freezes solid), or you catch me singing "September Song" as I come about. Had a fine sail yesterday on my Beaver Lake (Northwest corner of Arkansas) with sunny 70s, southerlies forecast ten to fifteen, but I had some great sailing when it piped up in the 20s with lots of whitecaps. I've sailed in puddles of sweat, and bundled ten layers deep, with spray freezing on the sails. But we do sail all year around. Tough life. Cry for me. .--.-. | ( ( )__ \ _ / (_, \ ) ,_) | -== (_) ==- -'--`--' /|\ / \ / | \ | ^^ / | \ / | \ ^^ /361| \ / | \ / | \ ^^ / | \ ___/____| \ ______|_ \ ___ _______/ ==== \___\___/ | “MONTGOMERY 15” / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~^~~^=~^~~-=~^~^~=~^~=~~^~= ~^~=~~^=~^~~^~^=~^~-~^~~^~= ^~=~^~=~~^~~=~~=~^~=~~^~~^~^^ John Butler - Sailing again. Praise the Lord!

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Spring is here
by ORLANDO VELEZ 30 Mar '07

30 Mar '07

Rick Langer and Donglai Gong Spring is here. When do you plan to launch? Is it warm enough? How are launching facilities in your area? Maybe we could get together. Orlando Velez M15 #266

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re: The value of a Montgomery
by Steve R. 30 Mar '07

30 Mar '07

Let me begin by saying "Hi" to Jerry and Bob and thank both of you for your continued support. One thing to keep in mind about the M-15 in particular is that storage is simpler and less costly than for larger boats. If you visit the bulletin boards of bigger boats or look at the "for sale" sites you will find a lot of boats are available "for free". The owners just give up on paying fees for a slip or storage. Call the extra price for an M boat a convenience premium. Another thing at least as far as the Eastern owners go is there are fewer boats available than there were a few years ago, before those big hurricanes hit. The supply is beginning to thin out. And have you check the prices of new boats? The cost of everything has gone up. Many 15s are kept in covered storage and look far better than bigger boats of similar vintage. I have twice had people ask me during gas stops if I am towing a new boat. No one believes it is 20+ years old. I saw Skip’s boat when she was on her way to MD. I had looked up the ad and I thought for $3,800 he got a good deal. Now after I began fixing my boat up, my wife asked if I would have been better off buying a new boat or maybe a new trailer. The trailer took a lot of work but she sure tows good and loads easy. Maybe I would have been better off buying new. My boat is nice and no offense to Jerry but the boats Bob builds are super. Bob keeps raising the bar year after year just like Jerry did when he was building them. We sold our last house on our own by setting up a web site, buying ads in the local papers and with a blank contract that I bought off the internet. I would do the same thing again, but next time I will start with a higher asking price. People seem to believe that sellers will come down drastically once you start negotiating. Not only were we being low balled, we had one couple that made multiple, identical low ball offers. The fact that they were driving by the house at all hours of the day and night was not a particularly clever negotiating tactic on their part. If I had known that Howard was a pro I should have gotten him to do an appraisal when he stopped by. I bought my boat sight unseen after I had a survey done. The survey value was 20% above the asking price and the surveyor commented on the substantial construction of the scantlings (sp?). It was a no-brainer for me at that point. Maybe a survey could help a seller establish a price point. If I have an issue with price, it is that some of you guys are selling your boats too cheap. When you look at the market I think the Montgomery boats are a great value. I wish I had a fleet of three. No, make that four as I would need a dink for my 23. steve Steve R. M-15 #119 Lexington, KY

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Request from an M7'11" owner
by Bobbie Mayer 28 Mar '07

28 Mar '07

I'm forwarding this message for a fellow M-boat owner who is having trouble posting to the list. I recently bought a very used Monty 7-11 and I'm fixing it up. I'd like to know the dimensions of the original daggerboard, rudder, mast, boom and sail. If there is someone in the Bay area with these items, I'd be happy to drive to you to take these measurements...or better yet, if you can send me dig. pics. with measurements on them, I'd be eternally grateful. For anyone who cares, I'm also going to set her up as a gaff rig with a bow-sprit and jib. Should be interesting, and I'll get pictures out to the Monty community when I'm done. I'm at <mailto:ppaquett@cisco.com>ppaquett(a)cisco.com Thanks for any help you can give me! Paul

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Re: M_Boats: The value of a Montgomery
by Sailfan1 27 Mar '07

27 Mar '07

Correct Jerry (except I'm a he...) I was just put off by an email I received whereby the person simply said "A bit high priced for a 91 don't you think". That was it..!! Nothing else to the email what-so-ever. It just pissed me off considering people just don't seem to get what a deal it is when someone is able to pick up a 15 for under $6k. A simple math check taking into consideration all parameters; demand, limited availability, build quality, current condition, sailing characteristics, beauty in design, replacement cost, etc. would easily dictate that at $7900 for my '91, it's a fair deal. But I digress, beauty is certainly in the eyes of the beholder as is worth. Again, I'm in no hurry to sell mine and frankly never seem to be convinced I'll ever fully want to part with her. My tug of war is with the 1ft-itis disease. But man I love my little 15..! Thanks for the great design Jerry. Sailed her this weekend in 18+ and man what a sail. Reefed main and full jib and she just got in her groove and drove to weather completely in her element. I appreciate all the emails in support of my position regarding value. I was beginning to worry I was loosing my mind..! Thanks all. Ashley M15 #478 ----- Original Message ---- From: jerry <jerry(a)jerrymontgomery.org> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 4:30:09 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: The value of a Montgomery I think she's saying she's with fed up with people low-balling her on the price! I've had those same emotions and I don't blame her. Jerry jerrymontgomery.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "W David Scobie" <wdscobie(a)yahoo.com> To: "Sailfan1" <sailfan1(a)yahoo.com>; "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 12:17 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: The value of a Montgomery > i'm not understanding your point in this email. are you saying in general people pay to much for a monty? or, are you saying supply and demand will command a fair price? or other? i'm not following your message's thesis. > > my opinion on anything boats (also works for cars, movies, houses, hometowns/states, college, sport team, etc ...): > - what people want is their business > - people have strong opinions about what they have/want > - on the good and bad qualities when matching one boat to another: everyone is right while at the same time everyone else is wrong > - if you have the money to spend, buy what you want (and don't give a damn what other say) > - to you, your deal was better; to me, mine was better than yours > - don't buy a boat thinking you will 'get back your investment' > > if someone sends you an email saying your price is too high ... so what. if you can wait to sell, wait. i would have responded, "my price is firm." yes, four words and hit the 'send' button. > > there are many fun parts to boating. one of them is debating boats. never ending and no one 'wins.' but if someone has a good bottle to pass the conversation is fun. > > > dave scobie > M15 #288 (not yet named) > > Sailfan1 <sailfan1(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Somehow I'm thinking I won't find many friends here on this but wanted to put this out there just the same as I think it's a good topic. I received a rather rude email this morning asking me the rhetorical question of if I thought my boat was priced too high. I asked the sender if this was supposed to be an intelligent question or if they were just trying to make a point. I pretty much sent the following email. > > Perhaps you've heard the expression you get what you pay for? > > It always amazes me how intelligent people fancy themselves when it comes to these boats. On the one hand there is almost a snobbery in regard to how much better they are than other boats of their size yet when they look for a used boat (buyers and voyeurs alike) they feel the price should be on par with the "inferior" (not my word) brand. Other brands in this size category sell in the $5k+ price range so why wouldn't good Monty's sell for more if they are indeed as most will say, a better built boat? > > I recall a conversation I once had with the current builder of Montgomery's and in the discussion I off-handedly referred to the other most commonly associated brand, as being the same caliber of boat. At that point I thought I was being reprimanded by my own dad. I was duly and steadfastly reminded that Montgomery's were in no way in the same league or of the same caliber and that "these were real sailing boats not rowboats with sails". > > My observation is people in the Montgomery used market sit around hoping a boat comes up for sale, preferably by some owner that can be taken advantage of who might not know the true market value, or they settle for a boat in rough and neglected shape then pat themselves on the back they only paid $5k but with a season of work ahead of them to make repairs and pretty them up. > > Regardless that very good ones are out there and the trailers are in good working order, but that the price reflects the level of quality. > > People even send emails in this very forum when they discover an M15 for sale at $5k or under eagerly wanting to share the find. As though gold bars have just been discovered at 50% off. > > I have had a couple of people contact me, clearly knowing what I have listed the boat for, and yet only after exchanging some emails they say, oh it's a bit high for my budget despite their seeing the pictures and complementing how beautiful the condition my boat is in. > > These people are silly in my opinion and frankly I think are only fishing to see if there's a sucker on the line. You either want a good quality used M15 or you don't. Your choice is to either buy a new one for $14k all in - and deal with the wait time - or buy an older, most likely abused or neglected 80's version, complete with steel shot keel, etc, for about $5k. As one person who contacted me put it, people usually sell boats when they aren't using them anymore. Most commonly this is correct and it more often translates to a boat that has indeed been left sitting outside in the weather to rot before taking the time to try and sell it. > > An alternative is a well found 1991 boat, well cared for, garaged stored, bells and whistles such as lead ballast which has been preferred, extra rigging, and in ready to sail shape for a fair asking price IMHO. Yet in this niche market of buyers for these fine little yachts, there seems to have become an almost ignorant concept of what should be paid. > > To answer the lame question my answer is obviously no. And since I am in no hurry to sell my boat I can afford to wait until an intelligent and reasonable new owner comes along. And frankly that's the kind of individual I'd prefer to sell the boat to anyway. If I even sell it at all. > > I'm sure there will be several armchair replies to this email and most will more than likely slam me for having this opinion. But at the end of the day, the answer to the question of what is the true value of a Montgomery 15, is quite simply, whatever the right buyer is willing to pay. > > Ashley > M15 #478 > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ > Finding fabulous fares is fun. > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > --------------------------------- > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/730 - Release Date: 3/22/2007 7:44 AM > _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

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