November 2005 - montgomery_boats - mailman.xmission.com

North Channel Cruise
by htmills＠bright.net 02 Nov '06

02 Nov '06

I'm planning on a two week North Channel Cruise in mid June. I'll probably drive from Ohio to Tobermory, take the Chi-Cheemaun ferry over to South Baymouth (Manitoulin Island), and then drive to Little Current (Manitoulin Island) on Saturday June 5th. I might end up taking the ferry on the morning of the 6th depending on how late I hit the road. At the present time I'm thinking of making a general counter clockwise spin around the North Channel, launching at Spider Bay Marina in Little Current and going north and then west to the Bustard Islands and west and then crossing south to the west end of Manitoulin and returning east again. Of course, all plans are subject to the weather and whims of the person at the helm! Mid June will probably be a bit ahead of the crowd and still kinda nippy. There is some info on the area at: http://www.continuouswave.com/north-channel/ and here: http://www.continuouswave.com/sail-logs/ If anyone else is planning on a trip up there, perhaps we can meet up! Tod

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Centerboard
by Robert Eeg 09 Jul '06

09 Jul '06

Lets not forget that the older pre 1987 M_15s had steel shot for ballast. While most of these boats are fine, a number of them had (over the years) water intrude into the keel and start rusting the steel shot. As the steel rusts, the keel swells up and squeezes the centerboard. All M_15 centerboards pre 1987 also were fiberglass with steel shot inside. These also could swell up over the years and get stuck in the up position. The weight of all these fiberglass/steel shot boards was close to 45 pounds. Never more than about 47 pounds. All the M_boats after 1987, both in the 15 and 17 have lead instead of steel for ballast material inside the keel and inside the 45 pound centerboard. I doubt that Tom has dirt holding the board up. More likely the board, keel trunk or both has swelled up and is now stuck. Same for you Jim. Once you get the board out it has to be made thinner so it won't be sticky. (sand smooth and carefully remove some of the material on the fat part). We use nothing but pure lead. No rust, no swelling. Fair winds Bob (949) 489-8227 Robert Eeg bobeeg(a)earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.

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RE: M_Boats: Tips for removing sealants/adhevisves
by Tom Smith 08 Dec '05

08 Dec '05

Anybody found an effective yet environmentally benign way to remove sealants this side of 5200? t /)) Tom Smith & Jane VanWinkle M15/345--Chukar M17/496--Unnamed

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Re: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 05 Dec '05

05 Dec '05

In a message dated 11/27/2005 8:08:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, gilbert(a)mindgame.com writes: I would like to hear from you guys that bought the new lighter material rudders from ida sailor Hi Gilbert, Larry Yake with his early M17 was the first to try the Idasailor rudder. There is a picture of the assembly on the Photo Site (link below). Larry helped develop the shape of the rudder which is like the original designed by Lyle Hess. I can say after the two week NW Cruise, Larry was very happy with performance and use. I think he may be the only M-Boater with one... My experience with them is from my past ownership of a Potter. Idasailor is the OEM rudder maker for all of the Potter craft. They may not put the blade to a test like real race craft, but then again with the winds of our SF Bay, they do get to see use. I lurk on the Trailer Sailor Forum on occasion and they (Potters) seem to be quite happy with the product. Good luck on your quest. Bill keeper of the Photo Site _www.msog.funtigo.com_ (http://www.msog.funtigo.com) Rudder Link _http://www.funtigo.com/MSOG?b=197153&c=1789789&p=start&cr=1_ (http://www.funtigo.com/MSOG?b=197153&c=1789789&p=start&cr=1)

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Re: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder
by Larry E Yake 03 Dec '05

03 Dec '05

Wow, Tod, nice bit of research work. I didn't have to go to the 4th website to get the headache. Not being an engineer, and not even playing one on TV, it's mostly over my head, but I follow your examples of forces somewhat. I'm sure I don't understand all the forces at work on a boat rudder, knowing only what I feel and the results I see. As you mentioned, the "feel" can be deceiving. It would be interesting to be able to look down the rudder under various conditions to see if there were some mysterious things happening. Nice thread here. Good discussion. Larry On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:04:17 -0500 <htmills(a)bright.net> writes: > Larry, > > I wasn't thinking about torque from weather helm, but instead a > twisting of > the blade due to the force on the blade from the water not being in > line > with what structural engineers call the "shear center". You might > not even > particularly feel any weather helm, depending on how well balanced > the > rudder blade is. Sometimes you get funny things like that going on. > For > example, if you have a 10' long piece of angle iron sticking out of > a wall, > looking like an "L" and you put a sandbag on the end of it, it > won't just > bend down a bit. It will also bend to one side. Similarly, if you > have a > 10' long piece of channel sticking out of a wall like so: [ and you > push > down on it at the centroid of the cross-sectional area, it will not > only > bend down a bit but it will also twist. To get it to bend straight > down, > you actually have to put a little bracket on the backside of the [ > away from > the horizontal legs (flanges) and push down there (to the left of > the > vertical web as I typed it) or else counter twist as you push down. > > I was curious so I googled the modulus of elasticity of some > plastics like > HDPE and UHMW and Starboard and it looks like they are quite a bit > (about 10 > times) more bendy than the same section built of mahogany. > > http://www.machinist-materials.com/comparison_table_for_plastics.htm > > http://www.righteouswoods.net/mahogany_african.html (probably our > rudders > are Honduras Mahogany, I'd guess, but this gets us in the ball > park) > > However, that still doesn't mean that the rudder couldn't give > quite > satisfactory performance. It could be that in both cases the > deflections > are not especially significant. If I were racing, though, I'd > choose the > wood any day over an unreinforced plastic, unless the course were > through > some skinny water! :o) > > I'm still wondering about the location of the shear center of a > foil, > though. Didn't see anything really juicy. Here is a brief mention > of the > subject: > > http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~drmac/elasticaxis.html > > If you wanna give yourself a headache, look at this one. Sure gives > me one: > > http://www.ae.msstate.edu/~masoud/Teaching/exp/A15.7_8_ex1.html > > The thing is, your typical foil such as an airplane wing isn't made > of a > homogenous (sp?) material the way our rudders are. > > Anyway, not knocking them; for some places they make much better > sense than > the standard non kick-up rudder. > > Tod > M17 #408 > BuscaBrisas > > -----Original Message----- > From: > montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net(a)mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] > On > Behalf Of Larry E Yake > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 8:19 PM > To: montgomery_boats(a)mailman.xmission.com > Subject: Re: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder > > > Regarding the Ida Sailor kick-up rudder, I would think you would be > experiencing a huge amount of weatherhelm before you had enough > torque to > make the rudder blade twist. The cheek plates are pretty > substantial. I > really doubt we're getting any twist or flex. The tiller doesn't > have any of > the flex feel that I've noticed on the stock M15 kick up rudder. > I've only > been using mine one season so I can't speak to the long term > durability > issue other than to say the quality and strength of construction > look very > good. The pointing ability doesn't seem to be any different than the > stock > rudder, which is a good thing. My stock rudder was one of the > earlier, > balanced models and I was reluctant to replace it, but since it > couldn't > even be raised vertically in shallow water I needed to do something. > The > foil shape is very good on the stock 17 rudder, so I was pleased > that the > kick-up rudder seems equal in performance. I have no vested > interest in Ida > Sailor, and get nothing from them for endorsements. I did get a > discount on > my rudder for helping with the design. I just believe it's a good > product. > The rudder breaking on the Santana is somewhat worrisome. I have > also heard > of a corrosion problem on the aluminum cheekplates on one of the > east coast > boats, which was also blamed on substandard material. There are > about a > dozen Ida Sailor M17 rudders out there last I heard. Anyone else > having any > problems? > > Larry > > On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:32:55 -0500 <htmills(a)bright.net> writes: > > While those plastics no doubt offer some advantages, I would > suspect > > that > > rigidity of the overall blade would be less than the factory > rudder, > > meaning > > that when viewed from the top the tip of the rudder would want to > > > bow to > > weather with weather helm and might well twist, putting the tip at > > > a > > different angle of attack than the upper part of the blade if the > > > shear > > center of the foil doesn't coincide with the center of lift, which > > > could > > offset some of the gains of the "good" foil shape. Still, for > some > > people > > it's probably a very good option, certainly better than getting > your > > transom > > bolts popped. > > > > Tod > > M17 #408 > > BuscaBrisas (<= who's transom bolts got stretched significantly > > once) > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: > > montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net(a)mailman.xmission.com > > > [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] > > > On > > Behalf Of Tom Smith > > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:34 PM > > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > > Subject: RE: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder > > > > > > > > Larry has an Idasailor rudder, Randy Graves has one, and I have > one > > that's > > not yet installed. I'll let those guys speak regarding durability > > > over time > > and performance, but I'm impressed with the quality of the build. > I > > wasn't > > aware of a new, lighter version, or if the Montgomery blades can > be > > ordered > > in a different hdpe material than what I got or not. It sure > seems > > industrial strength to me, and in my opinion it's a superior > > solution to > > grounding than the original slide-up design. > > > > t > > > > > > > > /)) Tom Smith & Jane VanWinkle > > M15/345--Chukar > > M17/496--Unnamed > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > in/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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Re: M_Boats: Any M15 skippers in th SF bay area?
by BILLAMICASR＠aol.com 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

In a message dated 11/28/2005 9:29:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, j_burns_98(a)yahoo.com writes: I recommend Berkeley to launch at. Lots of parking, four good boat ramps in good shape, and only $5.00 to launch. Hi Joe, I'm partial to the Richmond launch ramp. Same thing lots of parking, good ramp, $5.00. However, if you winter sail you'll find the Richmond Riviera has a bit more sun because Angel Island keeps the clouds at bay. They sort of part at the Island and give Richmond a mostly clear day. However, either is a long way from Pacifica. So, I usually launch at Oyster Point, Coyote Point or the Yacht club ramp off of third street (near PacBell Ball Park). I've also been out of Grand Avenue on Alameda and another on the otherside of the Estuary, but I cant recall the street name and I've heard that one will be closed. >From experience, I'd say you need a power boat about half the time on the Bay. However, a stout sailboat is the key for spring and summer . And you'll need foulweather gear during those times as the weather comes in with the wind. It may be sunny in the East Bay, but it's usually not in the West Bay. Bill

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Exuma deck cargo - Montgomerys
by Doug Kelch 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

Rick Langer had mentioned the idea of going to the Bahamas. Since I do not have the free time to wait for a weather window,I couldn't resist takeing a peek at the price for deck cargo. http://www.gandgshipping.com/Exuma.htm I called and they want $1111.90 for any boat on a trailer 21 ft long or less, to the Exuma's Food for thought! Anybody want to pull together a trip for 2007 or 2008? Thanks Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/

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Any M15 skippers in th SF bay area?
by Joe Burns 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

Hi Bill, Hope I'm doing this thread correctly (first time). My name is Joe also, and I know what you mean by not much wind in the Bay Area. Yesterday, Sunday I launched from the Berkeley Marina, and barely any wind at all. Good thing I had my outboard topped off, since I wasn't going anywhere at times, esp. since current is still a factor. Had a good time though, and if one is interested in sailing up here, I recommend Berkeley to launch at. Lots of parking, four good boat ramps in good shape, and only $5.00 to launch. One caveat, when getting off 580 north onto University Av., going west is a little tricky if you haven't been there before. Anyways, that's all on there web page. JoeB

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Re: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder
by Larry E Yake 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

Regarding the Ida Sailor kick-up rudder, I would think you would be experiencing a huge amount of weatherhelm before you had enough torque to make the rudder blade twist. The cheek plates are pretty substantial. I really doubt we're getting any twist or flex. The tiller doesn't have any of the flex feel that I've noticed on the stock M15 kick up rudder. I've only been using mine one season so I can't speak to the long term durability issue other than to say the quality and strength of construction look very good. The pointing ability doesn't seem to be any different than the stock rudder, which is a good thing. My stock rudder was one of the earlier, balanced models and I was reluctant to replace it, but since it couldn't even be raised vertically in shallow water I needed to do something. The foil shape is very good on the stock 17 rudder, so I was pleased that the kick-up rudder seems equal in performance. I have no vested interest in Ida Sailor, and get nothing from them for endorsements. I did get a discount on my rudder for helping with the design. I just believe it's a good product. The rudder breaking on the Santana is somewhat worrisome. I have also heard of a corrosion problem on the aluminum cheekplates on one of the east coast boats, which was also blamed on substandard material. There are about a dozen Ida Sailor M17 rudders out there last I heard. Anyone else having any problems? Larry On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:32:55 -0500 <htmills(a)bright.net> writes: > While those plastics no doubt offer some advantages, I would suspect > that > rigidity of the overall blade would be less than the factory rudder, > meaning > that when viewed from the top the tip of the rudder would want to > bow to > weather with weather helm and might well twist, putting the tip at > a > different angle of attack than the upper part of the blade if the > shear > center of the foil doesn't coincide with the center of lift, which > could > offset some of the gains of the "good" foil shape. Still, for some > people > it's probably a very good option, certainly better than getting your > transom > bolts popped. > > Tod > M17 #408 > BuscaBrisas (<= who's transom bolts got stretched significantly > once) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net(a)mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] > On > Behalf Of Tom Smith > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:34 PM > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats > Subject: RE: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder > > > > Larry has an Idasailor rudder, Randy Graves has one, and I have one > that's > not yet installed. I'll let those guys speak regarding durability > over time > and performance, but I'm impressed with the quality of the build. I > wasn't > aware of a new, lighter version, or if the Montgomery blades can be > ordered > in a different hdpe material than what I got or not. It sure seems > industrial strength to me, and in my opinion it's a superior > solution to > grounding than the original slide-up design. > > t > > > > /)) Tom Smith & Jane VanWinkle > M15/345--Chukar > M17/496--Unnamed > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > _______________________________________________ > in/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > >

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RE: M_Boats: New Kick up rudder
by Tom Smith 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

I can't think that would happen Todd. The IdaSailor rudders are exceptionally stout, and if it's the cheek plate to blade joinery that you'd suspect, it's very similar to the M15 setup, and I've never experienced that phenomenon in that boat. But heck, maybe. Perhaps Larry or Randy can add some thoughts... I too have seen the result of a hard stop on the stationary rudder close up. It's a real ugly sight. t /)) Tom Smith & Jane VanWinkle M15/345--Chukar M17/496--Unnamed

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