[math-fun] dolphin names
From: Tom Duff <td@pixar.com> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=5453
On Tue, 23 Jul 2013, Warren D Smith wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jul/22/bottlenose-dolphins-names-...
--I think that language log guy (G.K.Pullum) is complaining way too much, devoting great effort to attack a claim that was not made. The dolphin finding seems valid to me, no matter how much he whines about it, and it does not say (nor far as I could see was it trying to) that dolphins have human-like language. It indicates that they have a useful functionality of indicating to each other who is located where. Pullum completely fails to comprehend that that would be very useful functionality for a herd of dolphins, instead wondering why if anybody shouted out "G.K. Pullum" in the street he would respond "G.K.Pullum" -- he sees no reason, therefore the whole thing is "obviously spurious." No, it is "obviously correct" (unless simply fraudulent) and interesting, and a simple and reproducible experiment (and Pullum seems to me to be a pompous idiot), and furthermore it might cast light on the beginnings of actual human language since, e.g, such a functionality could have started the whole ball rolling on that. (Indeed, we might ask: when, in human history, did "names" first appear? Probably unanswerable.) Incidentally, other animals also have communication abilities in some ways resembling language, for example honeybees use a dance-based sign language which has been decoded using video and artificial bee-robots, and is extremely useful for them. The Australian stingless bees however do not do that and may communicate in a quite different manner (olfactory?).
I don't think the result is by any means obvious. All that seems obvious to me is that the dolphins appear to have unique calls to which they respond in kind. To determine if this functions as a name I'd like to see how the other dolphins react (under controlled conditions). If I yell "Frank!" and some guy yells "Frank!" back, I don't know what that means. But if I yell "Frank!" and a bunch of people turn and look at the guy, I have reason to think it's an identifier. For me the gold standard would be for Dolphin #2 to make Dolphin #1's call, and for Dolphin #3 to swim to/look at/otherwise react to Dolphin #1. Failing that, having Dolphin #3 react similarly to a recording of Dolphin #1's call would at least be suggestive. But having Dolphin #1 copy its own recording... I don't know what to conclude. Charles Greathouse Analyst/Programmer Case Western Reserve University On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Warren D Smith <warren.wds@gmail.com>wrote:
From: Tom Duff <td@pixar.com> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=5453
On Tue, 23 Jul 2013, Warren D Smith wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jul/22/bottlenose-dolphins-names-...
--I think that language log guy (G.K.Pullum) is complaining way too much, devoting great effort to attack a claim that was not made. The dolphin finding seems valid to me, no matter how much he whines about it, and it does not say (nor far as I could see was it trying to) that dolphins have human-like language. It indicates that they have a useful functionality of indicating to each other who is located where.
Pullum completely fails to comprehend that that would be very useful functionality for a herd of dolphins, instead wondering why if anybody shouted out "G.K. Pullum" in the street he would respond "G.K.Pullum" -- he sees no reason, therefore the whole thing is "obviously spurious." No, it is "obviously correct" (unless simply fraudulent) and interesting, and a simple and reproducible experiment (and Pullum seems to me to be a pompous idiot), and furthermore it might cast light on the beginnings of actual human language since, e.g, such a functionality could have started the whole ball rolling on that. (Indeed, we might ask: when, in human history, did "names" first appear? Probably unanswerable.)
Incidentally, other animals also have communication abilities in some ways resembling language, for example honeybees use a dance-based sign language which has been decoded using video and artificial bee-robots, and is extremely useful for them. The Australian stingless bees however do not do that and may communicate in a quite different manner (olfactory?).
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What's all the fuss about? Birds claim territory by repeating a unique identification call --- eg. (European) blackbird, woodpigeon. Anyway, off topic --- send for the moderator! WFL On 7/24/13, Charles Greathouse <charles.greathouse@case.edu> wrote:
I don't think the result is by any means obvious. All that seems obvious to me is that the dolphins appear to have unique calls to which they respond in kind. To determine if this functions as a name I'd like to see how the other dolphins react (under controlled conditions).
If I yell "Frank!" and some guy yells "Frank!" back, I don't know what that means. But if I yell "Frank!" and a bunch of people turn and look at the guy, I have reason to think it's an identifier.
For me the gold standard would be for Dolphin #2 to make Dolphin #1's call, and for Dolphin #3 to swim to/look at/otherwise react to Dolphin #1. Failing that, having Dolphin #3 react similarly to a recording of Dolphin #1's call would at least be suggestive. But having Dolphin #1 copy its own recording... I don't know what to conclude.
Charles Greathouse Analyst/Programmer Case Western Reserve University
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Warren D Smith <warren.wds@gmail.com>wrote:
From: Tom Duff <td@pixar.com> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=5453
On Tue, 23 Jul 2013, Warren D Smith wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jul/22/bottlenose-dolphins-names-...
--I think that language log guy (G.K.Pullum) is complaining way too much, devoting great effort to attack a claim that was not made. The dolphin finding seems valid to me, no matter how much he whines about it, and it does not say (nor far as I could see was it trying to) that dolphins have human-like language. It indicates that they have a useful functionality of indicating to each other who is located where.
Pullum completely fails to comprehend that that would be very useful functionality for a herd of dolphins, instead wondering why if anybody shouted out "G.K. Pullum" in the street he would respond "G.K.Pullum" -- he sees no reason, therefore the whole thing is "obviously spurious." No, it is "obviously correct" (unless simply fraudulent) and interesting, and a simple and reproducible experiment (and Pullum seems to me to be a pompous idiot), and furthermore it might cast light on the beginnings of actual human language since, e.g, such a functionality could have started the whole ball rolling on that. (Indeed, we might ask: when, in human history, did "names" first appear? Probably unanswerable.)
Incidentally, other animals also have communication abilities in some ways resembling language, for example honeybees use a dance-based sign language which has been decoded using video and artificial bee-robots, and is extremely useful for them. The Australian stingless bees however do not do that and may communicate in a quite different manner (olfactory?).
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I agree that it's not at all obvious the dolphins take the recorded bits as their. But it does make perfect sense to me that they would *have* names that they use to initiate speaking to one another. But the fact that the dolphin whose recorded voice is played is the only one responding to it is interesting. It doesn't sound from the BBC article that any special selection of a given dolphin's recorded voice is played. Just some random bit -- is that right? All this proves (apparently) is that a dolphin recognizes a recording of its own voice, and responds by repeating the recording. This *might* mean the dolphin is saying "Roger willco, I'm here." But that's certainly not proven by this experiment. --Dan On 2013-07-24, at 9:20 AM, Fred lunnon wrote:
On 7/24/13, Charles Greathouse <charles.greathouse@case.edu> wrote:
I don't think the result is by any means obvious. All that seems obvious to me is that the dolphins appear to have unique calls to which they respond in kind. To determine if this functions as a name I'd like to see how the other dolphins react (under controlled conditions).
* Charles Greathouse <charles.greathouse@case.edu> [Jul 24. 2013 19:30]:
[...]
If I yell "Frank!" and some guy yells "Frank!" back, I don't know what that means.
You immediately know how many individuals are with in your communication distance? Thinking "alone(?) in a dark wood, there be dragons", that sounds _very_ useful to me.
But if I yell "Frank!" and a bunch of people turn and look at the guy, I have reason to think it's an identifier.
[...]
[Above answer inspired by once getting lost in the mountains, seriously thick fog, already dark, pretty cold, exhausted... Hearing a generator kicking in "saved" us, luckily we were in hearing distance of that one.]
participants (5)
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Charles Greathouse -
Dan Asimov -
Fred lunnon -
Joerg Arndt -
Warren D Smith