[math-fun] bridge and randomness
The thread on tennis and randomness reminded me of Persi Diaconis's two discoveries about bridge: 1) that the 'standard' method of shuffling wasn't very good and you needed to do additional shuffles to really randomize the deck. 2) bridge masters seemed to occasionally make counter-probabilistic plays [playing finesses and for suit splits, etc], but as a corollary to (1), he discovered that their play was actually correct for the *actual* probabilities [due to the inadequate shuffles]. I found it pretty impressive that the deviation from "true randomness" almost certainly wasn't all that much, but it was enough that the top bridge players could detect the deviation and took advantage of it. /bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <--
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
2) bridge masters seemed to occasionally make counter-probabilistic plays [playing finesses and for suit splits, etc], but as a corollary to (1), he discovered that their play was actually correct for the *actual* probabilities [due to the inadequate shuffles].
I've seen this claim before, but I don't believe it. I've never seen a source for it. I've read Persi Diaconis' paper on shuffling, and it's not there. I read the bridge publications that the experts read, such as "The Bridge World", and I've never seen it there. I've talked to a friend who has represented the US in the Bermuda Bowl (the most prestigious of the world championships), and he's never heard anything like that from any experts. It also doesn't make sense from the point of view of the sort of non-randomness expected. If you play rubber bridge, many of the suits are clumped in groups of four of the same suit. If you then deal without shuffling at all, then each person gets one card from the group of four, and suit distributions will be flatter than random. But the vast majority of expert bridge is duplicate bridge, where the cards don't start clumped together in this way. Instead, we start with the 4 hands stacked one on top of the other. And almost always, the four hands are each individually shuffled before being stacked, because the protocol is to shuffle your hand before replacing it in the duplicate board. The exception is that sometimes after a session, people want to examine a previously played hand, so they pull it out of the board and sort it to examine it, and may not reshuffle after they do this. But if this was the nonrandomness being exploited, those who were doing this wouldn't just say "the hands weren't shuffled enough, so I'll expect them to be nonrandom"; they'd get information 10 times as useful if they said "We took a look at boards 14 and 18 before shuffling, so I'll expect those two to be nonrandom"; and I've never heard this as part of the claim. Also, Diaconis' paper does not show that 7 shuffles are enough for bridge. Diaconis' paper concerns itself with how many shuffles are needed to give the 52! different orderings of the deck probabilities that are sufficiently close to equal. But bridge doesn't care about the 52! orderings; it only cares about making the probabilities of the (52!)/(13!)^4 classes orderings that yield the same bridge hands sufficiently close to equal. I haven't seen any results on how many shuffles this would take, but I would strongly suspect it to be less. Also, if people wanted to take advantage of the nonrandomness of typical shuffles, I would expect poker players (and the best poker players are just as sharp mathematically as the top bridge players) to exploit this more than bridge players, for a variety of reasons, including the greater monetary rewards, and the less random shuffle (bridge players typically shuffle 4-5 times; professional poker dealers do 3 riffs and one strip). This would be fascinating if true. But I have lots of reasons not to believe it, and I've never seen a citation. Culbertson's claim that if one suit is unevenly distributed, so are the other suits, to an extent greater than the effect of the uneven distribution of open spaces left by the first suit, was widely discredited long before computer dealing. And the claim that "the queen lies over the jack" would only apply in rubber bridge, and again, anyone unscrupulous enough to use this would use the more effective principle that "the queen lies over the jack in suits in which the queen was played immediately after the jack two hands ago". Andy
On 8 Jul 2011 at 11:28, Andy Latto wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
2) bridge masters seemed to occasionally make counter-probabilistic plays [playing finesses and for suit splits, etc], but as a corollary to (1), he discovered that their play was actually correct for the *actual* probabilities [due to the inadequate shuffles].
I've seen this claim before, but I don't believe it.
I've never seen a source for it. I've read Persi Diaconis' paper on shuffling, and it's not there. I read the bridge publications that the experts read, such as "The Bridge World", and I've never seen it there. I've talked to a friend who has represented the US in the Bermuda Bowl (the most prestigious of the world championships), and he's never heard anything like that from any experts.
I heard it from Persi, directly, when he came to BBN and gave us a lecture on this and other things he was working on [how to flip a coin fairly, etc]. This would have been maybe 1980 or so [???] -- it was after the Newman auditorium was opened, so I guess it couldn't have been really back in the old days... I never followed up on it but it just stuck as an oddity. [my thought was that it seemed very surprising, because it is hard to imagine anyone, even a full time professional player, playing enough hands to detect, notice, quantify and take advantage of such a very small deviation. Sort of like, how many times do you have to flip a coin to decide it is every so slightly biased] /B\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <--
Here's a hybrid story, relating to both of the above. Persi was called in at one point to investigate a team in duplicate that was winning more often than expected after making counter-probabilistic plays. These arose, he eventually discovered, because of the previous players at that table not shuffling their individual hands much before leaving them. The team under investigation was gleaning some information about the play of the previous hand, based on the orderings of the cards left for them. Persi has a nearly unlimited number of great anecdotes on the subject, so actually I have no problem believing Bernie's (2), though. --Michael On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>wrote:
On 8 Jul 2011 at 11:28, Andy Latto wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
2) bridge masters seemed to occasionally make counter-probabilistic plays [playing finesses and for suit splits, etc], but as a corollary to (1), he discovered that their play was actually correct for the *actual* probabilities [due to the inadequate shuffles].
I've seen this claim before, but I don't believe it.
I've never seen a source for it. I've read Persi Diaconis' paper on shuffling, and it's not there. I read the bridge publications that the experts read, such as "The Bridge World", and I've never seen it there. I've talked to a friend who has represented the US in the Bermuda Bowl (the most prestigious of the world championships), and he's never heard anything like that from any experts.
I heard it from Persi, directly, when he came to BBN and gave us a lecture on this and other things he was working on [how to flip a coin fairly, etc]. This would have been maybe 1980 or so [???] -- it was after the Newman auditorium was opened, so I guess it couldn't have been really back in the old days... I never followed up on it but it just stuck as an oddity. [my thought was that it seemed very surprising, because it is hard to imagine anyone, even a full time professional player, playing enough hands to detect, notice, quantify and take advantage of such a very small deviation. Sort of like, how many times do you have to flip a coin to decide it is every so slightly biased]
/B\
-- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <--
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-- Forewarned is worth an octopus in the bush.
I believe Goren recommended 3 shuffles. This will create 8 interleaved streams of cards. After the deal, my hand will have every fourth card. Assuming I know the pre-shuffle order of the deck, I should be able to estimate the details of each shuffle. After the dummy comes down, each player knows the order of his own hand, plus the (unordered) dummy. This might be enough information for a full reconstruction of the shuffles. (The 8 interleaved streams have some additional complicated restrictions, since the are created from only 3 riffle shuffles.) Rich ----------- Quoting Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>:
The thread on tennis and randomness reminded me of Persi Diaconis's two discoveries about bridge:
1) that the 'standard' method of shuffling wasn't very good and you needed to do additional shuffles to really randomize the deck.
2) bridge masters seemed to occasionally make counter-probabilistic plays [playing finesses and for suit splits, etc], but as a corollary to (1), he discovered that their play was actually correct for the *actual* probabilities [due to the inadequate shuffles].
I found it pretty impressive that the deviation from "true randomness" almost certainly wasn't all that much, but it was enough that the top bridge players could detect the deviation and took advantage of it.
/bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <--
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