Hi all, I was not disappointed at TdF '03, and I make that statement based on the fact that I was not expecting a groundbreaking warm loving melody mixed with intricated percussions. In fact, their new single has so many elements from E2K and the three new tunes, that it's almost naive for anyone to expect a second coming with their new album. I believe the lukewarm reception to TdF '03, E2K and the unreleased tracks played back in '97, has more to do with the missing elements, than with what's in them. There are almost no elements left, other than the vocals, from the band we all grew up with. Ralf and Florian, keep them coming. I'll buy anything from you guys. It's just that with every one of your new releases, you are making me miss Karl and Wolfgang more every time... E
The CD-Maxi of "Tour de France 2003" is now listed at amazon.de: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000A1M9U/georgieshomep-21 Gruesse aus Wien, Georgie -> "Yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker!" ( John McClane / 'Die Hard')
----- Original Message ----- From: "Enrique Correa" <enrique.correa@heraeusmtd.com>
Ralf and Florian, keep them coming. I'll buy anything from you guys.
Dont say that out loud, perhaps they'll do like Tangerine Dream and really DO churn out everything and anything they have, without critical sense :-) Latest move from TD is to [literally] take a bootleg CD set and release it officially. They didnt take the master tapes and release those, no, they took the actual bootlegs, remastered the sound and gave it to a record company. glenn
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:54:07 +0200, Glenn Folkvord \(Hyperion Media\) wrote:
Latest move from TD is to [literally] take a bootleg CD set and release it officially. They didnt take the master tapes and release those, no, they took the actual bootlegs, remastered the sound and gave it to a record company.
well, I'm sure we would be happy if KW would do the same thing.... After all, beside the "Concert Classics" CD, there are no official KW live recordings available.
After all, beside the "Concert Classics" CD, there are no official KW live >recordings available.
Why does everybody think this is an official record? I somehow strongly doubt that it is. If it is, somebody must've found a loophole in some old contracts enabling them to release it, which I doubt even more; there is no way in the world R&F are behind this release. Appearance-wise as well, there is nothing to suggest it's not a bootleg. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, however. Cheers, Peo
I missed it if there was a link where we can sample the new track Can someone out there send it along?????? THANKS
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Per-Olof Karlsson wrote:
Appearance-wise as well, there is nothing to suggest it's not a bootleg. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, however.
Well, it was released on silver CD by a major label with professionally made cover art and sold in normal consumer record stores. I'd say that makes it an official release. Bootlegs don't get sold in record stores. Except maybe used record stores. -- /* Soleil */
----- Original Message ----- From: "Soleil Lapierre" <lapierrs@cuug.ab.ca>
Well, it was released on silver CD by a major label with professionally made cover art and sold in normal consumer record stores. I'd say that makes it an official release.
You call those things a criteria for being an offical release?!!?! glenn
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Glenn Folkvord (Hyperion Media) wrote:
From: "Soleil Lapierre" <lapierrs@cuug.ab.ca>
Well, it was released on silver CD by a major label with professionally made cover art and sold in normal consumer record stores. I'd say that makes it an official release.
You call those things a criteria for being an offical release?!!?!
What other criteria are there? The only possible one I can think of is that it's something the band handed to the record company saying, "Here's our new album". But record companies can make up "best of" and other compilation albums without the say-so of the band. That certainly doesn't make them bootlegs. -- /* Soleil */
----- Original Message ----- From: "Soleil Lapierre" <lapierrs@cuug.ab.ca>
What other criteria are there?
Too many to list here.
The only possible one I can think of is that it's something the band handed to the record company saying, "Here's our new album". But record companies can make up "best of" and other compilation albums without the say-so of the band. That certainly doesn't make them bootlegs.
The band must give consent. Either for each release, or a general consent through a contract. Record companies can NOT make a compilations or live relase without the say-so of the band, because it's included in the contract (could be phrased like "the record company reserves the rights to release compilations or concert recordings at any time and from any source" but that it not the same as the band not having something to say.) Knowing the history of KW, and the lack of official compilations, not even a normal Best Of, it's safe to say CC is not an official release. I am sure the CD itself would give clues too. glenn
Well, it was released on silver CD by a major label with professionally made cover art and sold in normal consumer record stores. I'd say that makes it an official release.
Which "major label"? The major labels are WEA, BMG, Sony, Universal, and EMI. Peace.
Well, it was released on silver CD by a major label with professionally made cover art and sold in normal consumer record stores. I'd say that makes it an official release. Bootlegs don't get sold in record stores. Except maybe used record stores.
I have bought some new Kraftwerk bootlegs in record stores. All on silver CD. So that would not be an indicator, I believe. Jan
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, jan rocho wrote:
I have bought some new Kraftwerk bootlegs in record stores. All on silver CD. So that would not be an indicator, I believe.
Come to think of it, Tribal Gathering was certainly a bootleg. It didn't have any label or distributor information on it. I always wondered how that one made it into stores. -- /* Soleil */
Never seen TG97 in a store! I bought it at www.cdzone.co.uk, both the red LP and CD. both are recordings taken from the BBC Radio One broadcast. On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:28:23 -0600 (MDT), Soleil Lapierre wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, jan rocho wrote:
I have bought some new Kraftwerk bootlegs in record stores. All on silver CD. So that would not be an indicator, I believe.
Come to think of it, Tribal Gathering was certainly a bootleg. It didn't have any label or distributor information on it. I always wondered how that one made it into stores.
-- /* Soleil */
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On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Arnaud wrote:
Never seen TG97 in a store!
I first found it in the Virgin Megastore here in Vancouver. Snapped it up right away, of course. That store is pretty good for finding odd Kraftwerk stuff - that's where I got the KW1, KW2, R&F and Tone Float re-releases. -- /* Soleil */
true, the Germanofon releases were also widely available at a high prices in famous french stores. even the bootleg compilation called "Arbeiten Oeuvre" don't remember the exact title. On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:04:58 -0600 (MDT), Soleil Lapierre wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Arnaud wrote:
Never seen TG97 in a store!
I first found it in the Virgin Megastore here in Vancouver. Snapped it up right away, of course. That store is pretty good for finding odd Kraftwerk stuff - that's where I got the KW1, KW2, R&F and Tone Float re-releases.
-- /* Soleil */
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From: "Arnaud"
true, the Germanofon releases were also widely available at a high prices in famous french stores. even the bootleg compilation called "Arbeiten Oeuvre" don't remember the exact title.
In fact the "Concert Classics" CD has the wrong track listing again another pointer to it's origins. Remember... Keep Werking John www.keepwerking.co.uk
From: "Soleil Lapierre"
Bootlegs don't get sold in record stores. Except maybe used record stores.
I first found it in the Virgin Megastore here in Vancouver. Snapped it up right away, of course. That store is pretty good for finding odd Kraftwerk stuff - that's where I got the KW1, KW2, R&F and Tone Float re-releases.
Those "re-releases" are boots too... not official releases, as far as I know. I've seen these items and that Concert Classics in many of the "big name" outlets.. HMV springs to mind. All of which shows that bootlegs CAN be obtained in record shops. Years ago I asked why they were stocking bootlegs, the people behind the counter said they weren't bootlegs... "because they were obtained from our normal distributors". It will be interesting to know what reply Peo gets from MHV. Regards and Keep Werking John www.keepwerking.co.uk
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, John Shilcock wrote:
right away, of course. That store is pretty good for finding odd Kraftwerk stuff - that's where I got the KW1, KW2, R&F and Tone Float re-releases.
Those "re-releases" are boots too... not official releases, as far as I know.
No, bootlegs are recordings of concerts. None of those are live recordings and there is no crowd noise, so they can't be bootlegs. They might be unauthorized releases. That might explain why they were so expensive too - milk the fans for all they're worth. :)
Years ago I asked why they were stocking bootlegs, the people behind the counter said they weren't bootlegs... "because they were obtained from our normal distributors".
That's my opinion too. I don't see how a bootleg producer could (a) produce a pressed CD and (b) sneak it into the normal distribution chain. That's why I was pretty surprised to find TG97 in stores with no distributor info on it. -- /* Soleil */
----- Original Message ----- From: "Soleil Lapierre" <lapierrs@cuug.ab.ca>
That's my opinion too. I don't see how a bootleg producer could (a) produce a pressed CD and (b) sneak it into the normal distribution chain.
Record store buyers *and* distributors (which record store buyers buy from) sometimes (often?) dont have a clue about what are official releases or not. A distributor is not necesarily well informed about all artists, and may very well include CDs in their catalogue that a seemingly normal record label is offering them. I know, because I worked for record shops before and we were always offered bootlegs. glenn
Appearance-wise as well, there is nothing to suggest it's not a bootleg. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, however.
Well, it was released on silver CD by a major label with professionally
made cover art..
Oh yeah?? I don't know about the rest of you, but has anybody even heard of Ranch Life Records? It's a small US label who churns out mostly heavy metal records (!) They barely even have a web site. To claim it's a professional release is really funny I think. Ok, they stole the art from Trans Europa Express and printed it onto the CD - that's a neat effort. Likewise, they stole the old cover used by EMI on the Las Modelos single and put that on the front. I give that 3 out of 10 for effort, and -4 in legality. Or does the CD state they licensed the photographs too? No, it doesn't.
..and sold in normal consumer record stores.
Yeah. I confess I'm quite puzzled to the amazing spread this CD seems to have. It's on Amazon even :/ I have no idea how that happened, and it puzzles me that EMI lets them?
I'd say that makes it an official release. Bootlegs don't get sold in record stores. Except maybe used record stores.
Oh yes they do. All the bloody time I'm afraid... :/ I just wrote a friendly email to EMI in the UK, hoping they'll be able to settle this argument once and for all :) I really don't know for sure what is right and what isn't, but I have two arguments that I'd love to hear an explanation to anyway: <quote> I'm talking about a release with Kraftwerk called "Concert Classics", which was released under an American (?) label called Ranch Life, apparently a division of RME Inc. in Franklin, TN, USA. The catalogue number is CRANCH4. The CD states that it's made in England. The insert furthermore states: C 1975, 1998 Kraftwerk and EMI Music Distribution, licensed by Listen Up, Inc., Professional Division. All rights reserved. The question, then, is of course: is this a legal CD, which have been officially licensed by EMI to this company as stated? I somehow strongly doubt that. First of all, there is no mention of Kling Klang, which is Kraftwerk's company as far as I know. Secondly, EMI owns no rights to Kraftwerk material pre-1975 if I'm not mistaken (the Radio-Activity album was the first released on Capitol, back in 1975), and this live CD contains only pre-1975 materials. These two facts alone should prove it a bootleg in my book, but I'd like to be sure. </quote> So, can someone explain that last paragraph? I certainly cannot, except that it must be a boot. While we're at it, there is no company called RME Inc. in Franklin, TN. At least not on the web. There's no company called Renaissance Records that has anything to do with this either (there is a hip-hop label founded 2000 with that name though). I'd say that's quite fishy. Cheers, Peo (on sick leave, with waaaay too much time on his hands)
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Per-Olof Karlsson wrote:
..and sold in normal consumer record stores.
Yeah. I confess I'm quite puzzled to the amazing spread this CD seems to have. It's on Amazon even :/ I have no idea how that happened, and it puzzles me that EMI lets them?
So you're saying that the blurbs about EMI and distributorship on the back are lies? How do you know?
Oh yes they do. All the bloody time I'm afraid... :/
Oh well. That's a good thing - it makes them easier to obtain for collectors.
I somehow strongly doubt that. First of all, there is no mention of Kling Klang, which is Kraftwerk's company as far as I know. Secondly, EMI owns no rights to Kraftwerk material pre-1975 if I'm not mistaken (the Radio-Activity album was the first released on Capitol, back in 1975), and this live CD contains only pre-1975 materials. These two facts alone should prove it a bootleg in my book, but I'd like to be sure.
Where do you get this kind of information from? -- /* Soleil */
So you're saying that the blurbs about EMI and distributorship on the back are lies? How do you know?
Oh, I don't know :) But I'm making a well-educated guess! ;)
Oh yes they do. All the bloody time I'm afraid... :/ Oh well. That's a good thing - it makes them easier to obtain for collectors.
Yeah, true! :) Except that I think all boots and counterfeits should be burned. I hate them!
I somehow strongly doubt that. First of all, there is no mention of Kling Klang, which is Kraftwerk's company as far as I know. Secondly, EMI owns no rights to Kraftwerk material pre-1975 if I'm not mistaken (the Radio-Activity album was the first released on Capitol, back in 1975), and this live CD contains only pre-1975 materials. These two facts alone should prove it a bootleg in my book, but I'd like to be sure.
Where do you get this kind of information from?
That Kling Klang is the name of Kraftwerk's company is no secret, mm? :) Secondly, it's well-known that Kraftwerk themselves own all rights to their first albums. They bought back all rights from Philips back in the old days.. It's mentioned in Wolfgang's book too I think? I'm quite sure someone in here said it too, a couple of years ago. So, Concert Classics contains material from R&F + Autobahn = not EMI material. Before you say it, yeah, Parlophone (now EMI) did re-release Autobahn in 1985 and many times after that on CD, I know... Most likely with R&F's blessing :) But there are no legal reissues of KW1/2 or R&F anyway! Probably never will be either if we're to believe R&F. Another thought: why on EARTH would R&F choose to release a 1975 recording as Kraftwerk's first live album, eh, eh?? ;) Fat chance. Cheers, Peo
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Per-Olof Karlsson wrote:
Secondly, it's well-known that Kraftwerk themselves own all rights to their first albums. They bought back all rights from Philips back in the old days.. It's mentioned in Wolfgang's book too I think? I'm quite sure someone in here said it too, a couple of years ago.
I didn't know that. But I haven't read the books yet. -- /* Soleil */
So how do you read barcodes?
The first 5 or 6 numbers are the company code, the last 4 or 5 tell you the catalog number. In a traditional 12-number barcode for a recording, the 11th position tells you the format--well-defined ones are 1 for full-length vinyl, 2 for CD, and 4 for cassette. Peace.
Per-Olof Karlsson wrote:
Why does everybody think this is an official record? I somehow strongly doubt that it is. If it is, somebody must've found a loophole in some old contracts enabling them to release it, which I doubt even more; there is no way in the world R&F are behind this release.
Ralf & Florian aren't but EMI (or subsidiary label) is. DER AUTOMAT
participants (11)
-
Arnaud -
B I L L -
Der Automat -
Enrique Correa -
Georg Jajus -
Glenn Folkvord (Hyperion Media) -
jan rocho -
John Shilcock -
MuzikJunky -
Per-Olof Karlsson -
Soleil Lapierre