Well I told myself I wouldn't get involved, and I was doing better than Jonathan in that regard. But I've cracked...
-----Original Message----- From: Nick King [mailto:nickwking@ntlworld.com] Sent: 20 November 2002 01:13 To: klf@mailman.xmission.com Subject: RE: [KLF] [ot] Kopy protection
Surely, the reason for the fall in CD sales is that there isn't that many new artists around nowadays, the charts are full of manufactured Pop Idol/Star/Rivals/etc, independent labels have been bought up by majors, etc?
CD sales across the board are dropping. This creates a vicious cycle of competition that means that major record labels are leapfrogging each other, always trying to push 'the next big thing' (because first albums tend to sell more than second and third albums). This breeds apathy in the buying public above 18 years old. However the 8- to 12-year-old buying public still lap it up.
I know that there are people out there who don't buy vinyl/CD's and *DO* just download MP3's, but don't go and blame a fairly large percentage fall in record sales on people with PC's downloading MP3's! I mean there's a whole load of people out there who still don't have the bandwidth/time/knowledge to download MP3's, so surely the whole percentage fall can't be attributed to people who download this stuff!
Not the whole percentage fall. But a significant portion of it is caused by the availability of bootlegs.
Ah well, we won't be able to dissuade these useless wankers that the reason the sales are going down is simply that there isn't that much good stuff being released nowadays (apart from, say, Royksopp, Bent, Orbital, Orb - latter two recently dropped by their record label, and the like)...
This is an opinion held by a lot of people who're into alternative music, and while it's an ideal way of looking at things, sadly it's just not backed up by facts. Ultimately the reason that bands like the Orb get dropped are because they aren't selling as many records as the record company need them to, and while there are various factors to that (publicity etc.) that comes down to the fact that they just aren't mainstream and popular enough. There doesn't have to be any correlation at all between music you or I find good and music that sells well to the general public. I should know, I've been working on Fame Academy...
...Or maybe I'm just getting too old!
Sadly, I've already had to come to terms with the fact that I'm now twice as old as a lot of the people who buy things in the UK singles chart. And (dare I say it?) I'm probably among the youngest people on this list- sorry! Stuart. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 15/10/2002 ______________________________________________________________________ Any views or opinions expressed in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ENDEMOL UK plc unless specifically stated. This email and the information it contains are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately and delete the copy you have received from your system. You should not copy it for any purpose, re-transmit it, use it or disclose its contents to any other person. If you suspect the message may have been intercepted or amended please call the sender.
Stuart Bruce wrote:
CD sales across the board are dropping. This creates a vicious cycle of competition that means that major record labels are leapfrogging each other, always trying to push 'the next big thing' (because first albums tend to sell more than second and third albums)....
and...
Ultimately the reason that bands like the Orb get dropped are because they aren't selling as many records as the record company need them to, and while there are various factors to that...
There is a weird inability to scale back promotion and expenditure with the major labels. If your 1st album sells 500,000 and your second 100,000 they drop you, because they spend the same amount promoting both albums. If they spent 1/5th the money on the second one, it would be just as profitable per unit as the first, but despite this pattern happening to 90% of artists, they never learn from their mistakes - probably because promotional budgets are recouped from artist royalties. Another weird thing is that singles are now promoted for many weeks before release in order to pile up demand for a high entry into the charts. I do occasionally buy a pop single, but I have recently been going off tracks before they even reach the shops. Another factor is the self-inflicted bad value for money rules on CD singles, where you can only have 3 tracks totaling 20 minutes to qualify as a single (as opposed to 4 and 40 minutes). If the record companies deliberately give us worse value for money, of course sales will fall!
whole load of people out there who still don't have the bandwidth/time/knowledge to download MP3's, so surely the whole percentage fall can't be attributed to people who download this stuff!
Not the whole percentage fall. But a significant portion of it is caused by the availability of bootlegs.
Don't forget the drop in sales is caused by the gradual decline in people who are replacing old vinyl albums with new CDs of the same material. Once we have all repurchased the ones we want, that market collapses. I expect that will account for a far bigger drop in sales than bootlegging will - there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that bootlegging actually boosts sales, I know I have bought quite a few CDs because I have been able to hear enough of them via the net to know they would be a worthwhile purchase. - Andy_R
Another factor is the self-inflicted bad value for money rules on CD singles, where you can only have 3 tracks totaling 20 minutes to qualify as a single (as opposed to 4 and 40 minutes). If the record companies deliberately give us worse value for money, of course sales will fall!
<conspiracy mode on> I am not sure if this was the original reason, but could it be that this "rule" was introduced to "force" (read "allow") record companies to share all the mixes over two CDs instead of one, so the willing customer has to buy both of them ? <conspiracy mode off> Outpost Recordings on the other hand, publishing The Crystal Method in the US, released the second part of the single "Murder (You know it's hard)" with seven tracks, which makes a total running time of 53 minutes. The mixes are all very good, and still you pay only a third of the money you would spend on an album with the same running time. Now imagine those mixes were spread over three singles - or four, if they had the idea of shorter "radio" edits of some of the mixes. ($$$) In my opinion, selling more CDs is not a matter of a good copy protection... --- Thomas Touzimsky same shit // different day
now that stuart's chimed in... well, i just cant help it :) the reason cd sales are going down isnt because music enthuseists and hackers are starting to download mp3s. its happening because The Masses are downloading music instead of buying music. kazaa and programs like it are really part of the problem. its cool that people can swap music. it isnt cool that Everyone can, and does, abuse the privlage. its like capitalism... you can always kill people's questioning by making them feel good. its why george bush is in office. its why people download music on kazaa and dont feel bad about it. an idea i'm surprised no one has thought of might be just giving people the ability to download links to songs, rather than actually downloading the songs in their entirety. this first dawned on me when my sister came home from college for the summer and brought her computer home with her. to her dismay, she found that now, half the songs on her harddrive wouldnt play. when i looked at the "songs" she thought she had, i discovered they were actually links to streaming audio, rather than actual songs, and since this was the first time her computer had been disconnected from the lan, she had never known differently. the benefits to this are that record companies could actually keep track of who's listening to what and also give people an extremely effective alternative to kazaa. it'd be so much easier than having to hunt for rare tracks and so forth... all you'd have to do is search, and there it is. also, if the songs are just links on your harddrive, they couldnt be burned to a cd...! if people want to have a copy on their harddrive that they can use for burning and so-forth, theyd have to BUY IT! *gasp* (or have one of their friends burn them a copy... but still, not as damaging as the kazaa paradym). most people would initially say "ha! if i could listen to links, i'd never buy another cd again!" to them, i say, this: when instant messanger became free, me and my friends skoffed at how none of us would ever have a reason to get aol again... but then everyone wanted aol all of the sudden because they had the largest userbase... i dont think it was a coincidence at all. if keeping links on your computer means you can have better access to more music for free, i think people would buy into it and drop kazaa like a rock (except for maybe downloading photoshop, etc). still, there are thousands of ideas beyond this that are just waiting to be thought out. the real reason that the record companies are dying ISN'T because of mp3s, its because of the record company's REACTION to mp3s. if the record companies worked with apple and microsoft, they'd find that both companies already have very efficient systems set up for keeping personal collections of music and using them in legal, efficient, and occationally fun (!!!) ways. services like kazaa need to be crushed, not through legal bullshit, but actually replaced by alternatives that really are better and also controllable. its really the only choice. bottom line: if the industry would start attempting to provide better products to consumers, rather than trying to punish them for their evil deeds, i think things would turn around very very quickly for the record industry. until then... go vinyl! :-D
most people would initially say "ha! if i could listen to links, i'd never buy another cd again!"
No, but most of them might say "Hey, what comes out of my speakers can be recorded to wav/wma/ra/mp3 anyway"... ;-) --- Thomas Touzimsky same shit // different day ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom maclean iii" <tom@stereoboom.com> To: <klf@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [KLF] [ot] Kopy protection
now that stuart's chimed in... well, i just cant help it :)
the reason cd sales are going down isnt because music enthuseists and hackers are starting to download mp3s. its happening because The Masses are downloading music instead of buying music. kazaa and programs like it are really part of the problem. its cool that people can swap music. it isnt cool that Everyone can, and does, abuse the privlage. its like capitalism... you can always kill people's questioning by making them feel good. its why george bush is in office. its why people download music on kazaa and dont feel bad about it.
an idea i'm surprised no one has thought of might be just giving people the ability to download links to songs, rather than actually downloading the songs in their entirety. this first dawned on me when my sister came home from college for the summer and brought her computer home with her. to her dismay, she found that now, half the songs on her harddrive wouldnt play. when i looked at the "songs" she thought she had, i discovered they were actually links to streaming audio, rather than actual songs, and since this was the first time her computer had been disconnected from the lan, she had never known differently.
the benefits to this are that record companies could actually keep track of who's listening to what and also give people an extremely effective alternative to kazaa. it'd be so much easier than having to hunt for rare tracks and so forth... all you'd have to do is search, and there it is. also, if the songs are just links on your harddrive, they couldnt be burned to a cd...! if people want to have a copy on their harddrive that they can use for burning and so-forth, theyd have to BUY IT! *gasp* (or have one of their friends burn them a copy... but still, not as damaging as the kazaa paradym).
to them, i say, this: when instant messanger became free, me and my friends skoffed at how none of us would ever have a reason to get aol again... but then everyone wanted aol all of the sudden because they had the largest userbase... i dont think it was a coincidence at all. if keeping links on your computer means you can have better access to more music for free, i think people would buy into it and drop kazaa like a rock (except for maybe downloading photoshop, etc).
still, there are thousands of ideas beyond this that are just waiting to be thought out. the real reason that the record companies are dying ISN'T because of mp3s, its because of the record company's REACTION to mp3s. if the record companies worked with apple and microsoft, they'd find that both companies already have very efficient systems set up for keeping personal collections of music and using them in legal, efficient, and occationally fun (!!!) ways. services like kazaa need to be crushed, not through legal bullshit, but actually replaced by alternatives that really are better and also controllable. its really the only choice.
bottom line: if the industry would start attempting to provide better products to consumers, rather than trying to punish them for their evil deeds, i think things would turn around very very quickly for the record industry.
until then... go vinyl! :-D
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I forget; did they actually release Shag Times on CD or is this just a bootleg jobbie? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=922505308 Cheers, Chris
They most definitely did - I picked mine up from a second hand shop in Manchester for £8 and I've NEVER seen a copy bar that one. CD is the one to go for, the second half is all the obscure b-side mixes (listed only by BPM) that was going to consist of the "Burn The Beat" album. I think. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hawx" <hawx@slinkyskunk.co.uk> To: <klf@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:12 PM Subject: [KLF] Shag Times I forget; did they actually release Shag Times on CD or is this just a bootleg jobbie? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=922505308 Cheers, Chris _______________________________________________ KLF mailing list KLF@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/klf
Well, I guess I have the best proof of an official Shag Times CD possible: I once ordered my CD copy of Shag Times directly from KLF Communications. I think, that´s the best way to proove it, isn´t it. -- +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!
participants (7)
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Andrew Robinson -
Daniel Loos -
Hawx -
Mark Reed -
Stuart Bruce -
Thomas Touzimsky -
tom maclean iii