There has been a fairly well-constructed reply from Dave Bryant on the KLF Yahoo Group in reply to the post that I copied to this list yesterday. Makes a few interesting points but a few bad ones... I'll be replying either later today or tomorrow, so any comments that anybody else might want me to make on their behalf, fire away... If these messages getting copied here starts annoying anyone, please say & I'll stop. Stuart. **** OK then, I'll go back over some points, and maybe go into more depth... Firstly, there's been an enormous amount of Internet fraud with selling collectable vinyl recently - people selling what they claim is the genuine article, only for it to be proven to be a bootleg further down the line, or worse still not getting the product in the post at all. What you say about other sites ignoring this problem is technically incorrect - it depends how concerned the moderator is about the problem. I happen to know for a fact there are a shitload of supposed "original" 1987 albums being sold online at the moment which are anything but. In fact, they're the Chinese bootleg edition, which up until a year ago was up for sale in HMV for fifteen quid. Some of these are possibly being sold as genuine in ignorance, whereas there may be an element of craftiness going on with other people's trades. Whilst I accept it's technically none of my business if people want to fork out fifty pounds (or whatever) for counterfeit goods which are absolutely rife at the minute, I'd still rather people shifted such things to e-bay where there are at least some regulations and signed agreements to trade. Here, if someone were to get ripped off, there would be no come back at all, and I would feel a bit shitty about that if I were able to issue warnings and put a stop to it in the first instance. Obscure KLF vinyl isn't exactly cheap, as I'm sure you'll appreciate. But what is the harm of posting a *link* to an eBay auction that you

have just started? Not everybody has the time to do a search for "KLF" on eBay every three days.

Valid point - continually checking for links to KLF could be a pain in the arse, so I'm prepared to reconsider that for the time being, provided e-bay links don't become the sole posts on here. Which would be very boring indeed. In fact, I wouldn't see the point of continuing running this group. I think if you re-read my original post again, you'll find that my main concern _wasn't_ about e-bay's validity, but more about loopholes people can jump through by trading on Yahoo groups or other sites with no guarantee of orthodox trade. Which _is_ a problem at the minute. Believe me. You may not have had the misfortune to experience this, but it is going on.

This is a completely different issue to that of auctions & trading. If spam-collectors join this list using false names in order to gather e-mail addresses to later spam them (which does happen across Yahoo Groups), what has that got to do with auctions/trading posts? Nothing.

But I did say at the top of my post "I've become aware of the fact in recent months that a few people have been joining this list purely to sell KLF produce to other members by e-mail" (ie they're not going through the board, they're collecting e-mail addresses and spamming). If people are mailing off-board to individuals announcing *records* for sale (which has happened to me, and I've had one list member complaining about) then that is an issue. These spams have admittedly been sporadic and obviously only going through to x amount of people on the list whose e-mail addresses are public (me included), but it's still annoying. I'm sure you'll agree that this is an issue. Likewise, I'd be very interested to know if anyone has started getting spams for other things after joining this board, because I have my suspicions, but I mentioned that as an aside to the main issue.

You admit yourself this is personal bias. I happen *to* like the record collecting market. Maybe we should take a vote on it. But if trading of KLF items is forbidden here, what would be the point of staying with this list, when you can just send an e-mail to klf- request@m... </group/klf/post?protectID=194056182182056233050218072140231130188144166046186041172193194056143057083229073126> with the word "subscribe" in the body of the text, and you'll be subscribed to a more popular and active list?

Are you plugging another site for reasons of self-interest here? Just curious. And why have you said "If trading of records is forbidden here what would be the point of staying with this list?" when earlier on you've also suggested that that wouldn't be the main thing people would be interested in coming here for, and it wouldn't dominate postings? You seem to be suggesting it's the main point of interest for anyone coming here, and any site which offers that immediately has a major advantage. Don't you think you've contradicted yourself just a tiny amount there? Surely it wouldn't be a major issue if what you originally said is true? That aside... To be honest, I couldn't care less if everyone wishing to trade records did bugger off to the other site and do their business there. That's up to them. There seems to be an assumption that anyone running a list or website is doing it for some greater glory to be popular with a certain crowd, but the sole reason I really started this board is because I think the KLF (and Bill Drummond in particular) are still worthy of intelligent discussion, and at the time there wasn't another Yahoo Club on line catering for them and I wanted there to be one. Drummond has produced one great book this year whose surface hasn't really been scratched yet in my opinion, there are still a lot of questions surrounding the band's activities, and for God's sake, Drummond has recently started an Open Manifesto for mass contribution which nobody on here seemed willing to discuss when the subject was broached by another poster. If, as you say, another site is perfectly happy to let trades without guarantee take place, then *let it*. Those posts have obviously happily found a home now. Everyone's happy! If, in the meantime, nobody wants to post anything whatsoever about any other Drummond activity on here, then fuck it, I'll shut the group down after several consecutive months of zero posts or whatever. It might help if I got off my arse and promoted this site properly (which I haven't done for months now), but that's another issue. I apologise for not being more active here recently, but obviously I do have a personal life off this board, and sometimes it gets busy and complicated.

Speaking from experience, people don't like moderators who make decisions based on personal opinion rather than group interest. Please reconsider.

But it's not totally based on personal opinion, is it? This is really a subsidiary point to the main problem of online fraud. If it bothered me that much, I would have put a stop to it from day one, rather than gritting my teeth and just letting each post slip through. The reason it is of particular concern is due to the volume of KLF boots around at present. The fact that I don't like the collector's market anyway and happen to think there are things more worthy of discussion where the KLF are concerned than the price of white labels is a minor side-point. It *does* piss me off, not because I can't necessarily afford rare items, but because I think it's truly pointless and stops a lot of people from getting access to perfectly good music, especially after recent online MP3 crackdowns. As I've said, if you've got a copy of something or have heard it, do offer an MP3 link or offer to copy it, and I'd still very actively encourage this. This is essentially what I'm trying to get more people to do. As I've said, your reasoning is fair on one point, and people should feel free to post links to e-bay provided it doesn't get out of hand. That way, people visiting here are aware of stuff for sale, and also aware that it comes from a guaranteed source. Is everyone happy with this? Please spare me the flannel about heavy moderation, though. I've just allowed a post of yours to go on about another KLF group, haven't deleted the reference, haven't deleted your post, and haven't actively discouraged anyone else from joining it. This is not general practice across Yahoo Groups. I speak from experience this time! As for the collector's market, maybe there should be a thread over whether it's tosh or not, so it can be discussed properly without my reactionary comments and your offended replies (not "put to the vote", as I don't really think things like that can be quantified in a black and white manner as being "good" or "evil", and it might make for an interesting discussion). Anyway... that's it, I think. Dave. -- Stuart Bruce / Web Video / 0208 348 9566 ext. 2610 07729 164044 / stuart.bruce@fameacademy.endemoluk.com ______________________________________________________________________ Any views or opinions expressed in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ENDEMOL UK plc unless specifically stated. This email and the information it contains are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately and delete the copy you have received from your system. You should not copy it for any purpose, re-transmit it, use it or disclose its contents to any other person. If you suspect the message may have been intercepted or amended please call the sender.