The big record companies (such as BMG) are starting to put copy protection on all CDs, which means they won't play in many portable and car CD players.
BMG is in fact the german publisher of Kosheen - or at least the CD single I got. Funny enough, I could mp3 the whole album without problems... [???]
This is an acceptable fault apparently, since it stops piracy, so it's ok to stop genuine listeners who've paid for it from listening to their own damn album. I doubt UK CDs will be different.
Funny enough, this is what the FAQ of the german BMG copy control page tells us... --- 1.Warum kann ich eigentlich mit meiner CD nicht machen, was ich will? Man zahlt entgegen dem allgemeinen Sprachgebrauch nicht für die CD, sondern für die Musik, die auf ihr enthalten ist. Im Grunde kann man eine CD mit einer Konzertkarte vergleichen. Weder bei dem Pappkärtchen noch bei der Plastikscheibe spielt der Materialwert eine nennenswerte Rolle. Und wie bei der Konzertkarte erwirbt man auch beim Kauf einer CD grundsätzlich nur das Recht, die Musik zu hören. --- (c-Row translates...) 1. Why can't I do whatever I want with my CD ? Opposite to the usual understanding, you don't pay for the CD but for the music that plays on it, just like you pay for a concert ticket. In both cases, the material worth is not comparable to what you get for it. And, like the concert ticket, buying a CD only allows you to listen to the music. --- Opinions please... --- Thomas Touzimsky same shit // different day
On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 12:21:24PM +0100, Thomas Touzimsky wrote:
1. Why can't I do whatever I want with my CD ?
Opposite to the usual understanding, you don't pay for the CD but for the music that plays on it, just like you pay for a concert ticket. In both cases, the material worth is not comparable to what you get for it. And, like the concert ticket, buying a CD only allows you to listen to the music.
---
Opinions please...
This is complete crap and goes against all previous laws regarding fair use - namely that you can make copies for your own archival purposes, or copies for listening to in the car etc. The real pirates here are the greedy-as-fuck record companies who are so terrified of losing any of the massive profits they make that they'll do anything to prevent it. If the revenue they're protecting actually went to the artists who recorded the work I might not mind so much, but it's just lining the pockets of record company execs, who're already filthy rich from overcharging and manipulating children into playing their sick pop circus of money-spinning shite. Read the link to The Register that Craig sent. I'll try to stay out of this thread - I'll get too angry! jon -- I listen a lot and talk less. You can't learn anything when you're talking. - Bing Crosby
Jonathan Wakely wrote:
I'll try to stay out of this thread - I'll get too angry!
I'm tempted to do this too, but I want to point out that consumer pressure can stop this. The record companies will be forced to back-peddle when the shops tell them they won't bear the administration costs of all the complaints. I am returning these defective CDs and demanding working replacements, I encourage everyone to do the same. - Andy_R
There was a bit of stink kicked up by Apple a about six months ago because, when a "broken" CD is inserted into an iMac, it causes serious problems to the computer (if you can call a Mac a computer *grin*), the upshot of which is that you can't turn the computer on, and have to take it to an Apple service centre for them to strip it down, remove the CD and then reflash to CMOS and the BIOS to restore the damage caused by the CD. Not heard anything about it recently though.
On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:58:26AM +0000, Andrew Robinson wrote:
Jonathan Wakely wrote:
I'll try to stay out of this thread - I'll get too angry!
I'm tempted to do this too, but I want to point out that consumer pressure can stop this.
The record companies will be forced to back-peddle when the shops tell them they won't bear the administration costs of all the complaints.
Not according to one of the stories on The Register - in this country at least, it's likely that your only recourse with a defective CD will be to complain to David Blunkett - who might then allow you to approach the record company with legal right to demand a new one. But the next person who wants a working copy *also* has to go through the Home Secretary, and seek legal approval to complain to the record company. This is a stupid decision, in contrast with the usual system where once the judiciary decide you have a case that opens the gates for all similar complainants. No, not in this arena. The record companies are such evil bastards and convincing llobbyists that they're about to swing it so the consumer has almost no rights, and the company is almost unaccountable. (I'm not doing too well staying out of this thread, am I?)
I am returning these defective CDs and demanding working replacements, I encourage everyone to do the same.
I encourage this too, but hope it doesn't become impossible! -- "When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift
I am returning these defective CDs and demanding working replacements, I encourage everyone to do the same.
I finally found a CD/DVD drive that accepted the copy-protected Kosheen CD and was able to rip the songs to wav files (no magic marker or anything), which brings me to the conclusion that, after all, the copy protection was another useless effort to fill company executives' money bags. Somehow, a vision came to my mind... imagine a car retailer sells you the newest model in store with a note that "you are only allowed to drive our cars on the roads we allow you to". I mailed to BMG using their www.bmg-copycontrol.info page, asking who would replace a scratched CD, since I was unable to do a copy for private use, preserving the original. All that came back was the standard reply that did not answer my question after all. Now THAT is customer service, isn't it ? --- Thomas Touzimsky same shit // different day
Thats the reason why I have Plextor CD drives (UltraPlex 40 and Plexwriter 121032 SCSI). Plextor got VERY useful feature. They can read ALL the protected CD (audio, data) without any problem :) All the audio CD's available here in Czech Republic are copy protected. Say fuck off to any kind of restrictions ! Kingboy DSP
-----Original Message----- From: klf-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:klf-admin@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Touzimsky Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:50 PM To: klf@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [KLF] [ot] Copy protection
I am returning these defective CDs and demanding working replacements, I encourage everyone to do the same.
I finally found a CD/DVD drive that accepted the copy-protected Kosheen CD and was able to rip the songs to wav files (no magic marker or anything), which brings me to the conclusion that, after all, the copy protection was another useless effort to fill company executives' money bags.
Somehow, a vision came to my mind... imagine a car retailer sells you the newest model in store with a note that "you are only allowed to drive our cars on the roads we allow you to".
I mailed to BMG using their www.bmg-copycontrol.info page, asking who would replace a scratched CD, since I was unable to do a copy for private use, preserving the original. All that came back was the standard reply that did not answer my question after all. Now THAT is customer service, isn't it ?
--- Thomas Touzimsky same shit // different day
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At the risk of being the one discenting voice in all this, it does seem sadly inevitable. We live in a capitalist world. Did we really think that those big old mean record companies would let people swap stuff that they invest millions in for free forever? I think the vast majority of people on this list are with me when I say that I do download and rip mp3s, but I also buy a collosal quantity of music. Just like hometaping in the 80's, we ain't gonna kill music cos we still plough moneyback into it. The problem is that many many many others are simply downloading and ripping CDs, and not putting anything back into the pot. Whether we like it or not, those dents in record company profits are a bad thing, as it makes them more defensive, conservative and middle of the road. The fact that it's evil and capitalist and la dee da is irrelevant. Boo hoo. We could stand here all day and rant about how unfair the world is. The fact is that if copy protection stops the continuing, passive pirating of pop music between people who are lazy, selfish and think they can somehow dodge capitalism, then, fuck it, GOOD. I'd rather have a few problems playing my new Lemon Jelly CD than not have it available at all. Del ----------------------------------- Derek Knight djnite@klf-communications.com http://www.djnite.co.uk
-----Original Message----- From: klf-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:klf-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Kingboy DSP Sent: 19 November 2002 16:01 To: klf@mailman.xmission.com Subject: RE: [KLF] [ot] Copy protection
Thats the reason why I have Plextor CD drives (UltraPlex 40 and Plexwriter 121032 SCSI). Plextor got VERY useful feature. They can read ALL the protected CD (audio, data) without any problem :) All the audio CD's available here in Czech Republic are copy protected. Say fuck off to any kind of restrictions !
Kingboy DSP
-----Original Message----- From: klf-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:klf-admin@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Touzimsky Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:50 PM To: klf@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [KLF] [ot] Copy protection
I am returning these defective CDs and demanding working replacements, I encourage everyone to do the same.
I finally found a CD/DVD drive that accepted the copy-protected Kosheen CD and was able to rip the songs to wav files (no magic marker or anything), which brings me to the conclusion that, after all, the copy protection was another useless effort to fill company executives' money bags.
Somehow, a vision came to my mind... imagine a car retailer sells you the newest model in store with a note that "you are only allowed to drive our cars on the roads we allow you to".
I mailed to BMG using their www.bmg-copycontrol.info page, asking who would replace a scratched CD, since I was unable to do a copy for private use, preserving the original. All that came back was the standard reply that did not answer my question after all. Now THAT is customer service, isn't it ?
--- Thomas Touzimsky same shit // different day
_______________________________________________ KLF mailing list KLF@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/klf
_______________________________________________ KLF mailing list KLF@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/klf
On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 08:45:22PM -0000, Derek Knight wrote:
I think the vast majority of people on this list are with me when I say that I do download and rip mp3s, but I also buy a collosal quantity of music.
I download NO music, and rip NO music, and I'm still enraged by the current trends in DRM! I don't have a (working) soundcard, and only ever burn CDs on the condition that if the recipient likes the record they'll buy an original. So I feel justified (no pun) in bitching against the (very badly implemented) copy protection being used right now.
Just like hometaping in the 80's, we ain't gonna kill music cos we still plough moneyback into it. The problem is that many many many others are simply downloading and ripping CDs, and not putting anything back into the pot. Whether we like it or not, those dents in record company profits are a bad thing, as it makes them more defensive, conservative and middle of the road.
true true
The fact that it's evil and capitalist and la dee da is irrelevant. Boo hoo. We could stand here all day and rant about how unfair the world is. The fact is that if copy protection stops the continuing, passive pirating of pop music between people who are lazy, selfish and think they can somehow dodge capitalism, then, fuck it, GOOD. I'd rather have a few problems playing my new Lemon Jelly CD than not have it available at all.
furry muff good point, well made -- "The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson
Well, I too buy a lot of CD's (for my sins) to support the artists, have the original, etc... ...But I also play CD's in my PC, which I won't be able to shortly now that copy protection is taking off. Surely, the reason for the fall in CD sales is that there isn't that many new artists around nowadays, the charts are full of manufactured Pop Idol/Star/Rivals/etc, independent labels have been bought up by majors, etc? I know that there are people out there who don't buy vinyl/CD's and *DO* just download MP3's, but don't go and blame a fairly large percentage fall in record sales on people with PC's downloading MP3's! I mean there's a whole load of people out there who still don't have the bandwidth/time/knowledge to download MP3's, so surely the whole percentage fall can't be attributed to people who download this stuff! I mean, think about it - how many artists have been dropped by record labels fairly recently? Wasn't David Gray dropped by his previous label (Hut) just before he released the album that shot him to superstardom? In my mind, there's a huge number out there, and when was the last best selling album out by one of the "so-called" superstars (Madonna, Elton John, David Bowie, etc)? Ah well, we won't be able to dissuade these useless wankers that the reason the sales are going down is simply that there isn't that much good stuff being released nowadays (apart from, say, Royksopp, Bent, Orbital, Orb - latter two recently dropped by their record label, and the like)... ...Or maybe I'm just getting too old! l8rs, Nick ;-)
On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 08:45:22PM -0000, Derek Knight wrote:
I think the vast majority of people on this list are with me when I say that I do download and rip mp3s, but I also buy a collosal quantity of music.
I download NO music, and rip NO music, and I'm still enraged by the current trends in DRM! I don't have a (working) soundcard, and only ever burn CDs on the condition that if the recipient likes the record they'll buy an original. So I feel justified (no pun) in bitching against the (very badly implemented) copy protection being used right now.
Just like hometaping in the 80's, we ain't gonna kill music cos we still plough moneyback into it. The problem is that many many many others are simply downloading and ripping CDs, and not putting anything back into the pot. Whether we like it or not, those dents in record company profits are a bad thing, as it makes them more defensive, conservative and middle of the road.
true true
The fact that it's evil and capitalist and la dee da is irrelevant. Boo hoo. We could stand here all day and rant about how unfair the world is. The fact is that if copy protection stops the continuing, passive pirating of pop music between people who are lazy, selfish and think they can somehow dodge capitalism, then, fuck it, GOOD. I'd rather have a few problems playing my new Lemon Jelly CD than not have it available at all.
furry muff
good point, well made
On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 01:12:48AM -0000, Nick King wrote:
Surely, the reason for the fall in CD sales is that there isn't that many new artists around nowadays, the charts are full of manufactured Pop Idol/Star/Rivals/etc, independent labels have been bought up by majors, etc?
Yeah, Stuart, you and your Fame Academy We know your game ;-)
I know that there are people out there who don't buy vinyl/CD's and *DO* just download MP3's, but don't go and blame a fairly large percentage fall in record sales on people with PC's downloading MP3's! I mean there's a whole load of people out there who still don't have the bandwidth/time/knowledge to download MP3's, so surely the whole percentage fall can't be attributed to people who download this stuff!
That's one of my big gripes, everyone is being punished for the fact that some people are breaking the law. I am fairly sure that more money is lost through bootleggers in the far east (where bootlegging is BIG business, and very organised) than through mp3s and p2p networks, and I'd bet you bread that _whatever_ DRM is used, the far east will crack it quicker than you can list all the KLF's pseudonyms. jon -- "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne
that shot him to superstardom? In my mind, there's a huge number out there, and when was the last best selling album out by one of the "so-called" superstars (Madonna, Elton John, David Bowie, etc)?
David Bowie just release a new album, which of course shot straight to number 53 in the charts like all his records do these days. (Well, except for "Greatest Hits" compilations.) But what I thought was interesting was that in an interview he was describing his relationship with his new record label (Columbia?). He basically said to them "Could we not have copy protection on my CD? I don't really like it." and they said OK to him. So, don't dis Ziggy.... He's on your side! <grin> Michael
Opinions please...
This is complete crap and goes against all previous laws regarding fair <snip>
what he said goes for me. its bollocks. if you do a quick search at slashdot.org for copy protection you'll find lots of other upset people and perhaps some info. its been gone over and gone over. this one stood out as perhaps being relevent. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/11/08/1759224&mode=thread&tid=141 "The Register is running a story about the most outrageous email sent from a customer services rep at BMI in Germany to a customer who had difficulty playing a copy-protected CD in his CD player. One of the most stunning lines from the translation: "If you plan to continue protesting about future audio media releases with copy protection, forget it; copy protection is a reality, and within a matter of months more or less all audio media worldwide are copy protected. And this is a good thing for the music industry. In order to make this happen we will do anything within our power - whether you like it or not."" the register story it points to is a different one http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/28009.html this place http://fatchucks.com/z3.cd.html lists cd's known to be protected - theres far more than i realised :( night all brendan
On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:05:19PM +1100, brendan wrote:
the register story it points to is a different one http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/28009.html
This link is worth reading too (it's these stories and others in the past few weeks that have made be so damn angry - and now someone's kicked me off and I'm venting my spleen! :-) There are two courses of action I plan to take: 1) Make a right royal stink and lots of noise to the retalier, and the record company, if I ever get a copy protected CD. There are millions of perfectly good CD readers in the world that can't be used for piracy, and yet are being branded as "dangerous" and unsupported. 2) Buy vinyl. I hate those shiny little discs anyway. Where does the stylus go? How do you find the mid-section of a track when you can't see a change in the depth of the groove? Darn new-fangled technology! If the record companies won't sell us decent CDs we can actually use, I won't buy them. -- "The Tao that can be expressed is not the eternal Tao"
Is this the copy protection that can be defeated by running a black marker over the middle ring of the CD? The Lord of the Rings soundtrack was the same thing. I actually had to pipe my CD deck into my computer, record the whole thing as a WAV file and then break up the tracks myself. That was before I read about the magic marker thing, but I wasn't sure if it was the same copy protection or not. I think PC's have replaced stereos for a *lot* of people. My father in law, for one, only has his computer to play CDs and I know at least three others in my family alone who don't own a stereo. I wonder what Bill and Jimi would think about all this. Well, I don't need to wonder actually, it's pretty obvious what they'd think. Jeremiah ----------------------------------------- Jeremiah "Spassvogel" Rickert 6'7" 320 lbs of Dr. Pepper and Pez Candy. -----------------------------------------
On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 04:26:01AM -0800, Jeremiah Rickert wrote:
Is this the copy protection that can be defeated by running a black marker over the middle ring of the CD?
That's the one that broke the Mac CD drives. The new versions are "better" (i.e. break different CD players in different ways). I *really* don't trust the record companies to come up with a DRM system that works to stop piracy, but allows all genuine uses. I think it's even been formally proved that reliable DRM is impossible - it will always be crackable or will have unwanted side effects.
I think PC's have replaced stereos for a *lot* of people. My father in law, for one, only has his computer to play CDs and I know at least three others in my family alone who don't own a stereo.
Not only that, but many CD players (such as car stereos) are based on CDROM drives, similar to those in a PC, so they won't play protected CDs either. This doesn't bother the record companies, who are scum. Er, I mean "who have an agenda that they will pursue at any cost". Because they're scum.
I wonder what Bill and Jimi would think about all this. Well, I don't need to wonder actually, it's pretty obvious what they'd think.
Burn The Bastards (and then dance on their ashes) Save The Vinyl -- When I was 8 or 9 years old, I aquired a split beaver magazine. You can imagine my disappointment when, upon examination of the photos with a microscope, I found that all I could see was dots.
participants (10)
-
Andrew Robinson -
brendan -
Craig Earnshaw -
Derek Knight -
Jeremiah Rickert -
Jonathan Wakely -
Kingboy DSP -
Nick King -
Thomas Touzimsky -
Thug