Re: WTIL Primal Remix - slightly different versions
Apologies. I meant to click SAVE, not Send. I wasn't done... Please disregard the earlier email. I'm on the digest so this might be redundant. I have three copies of this: - My archived digital version - this is most likely my personal rip. Around 20 years ago I digitized all my K and hunted down digital copies if they were out there. I didn't keep notes on sources but this *looks* like my work. I don't seem to have this on other digital - A fresh rip of my vinyl - because I couldn't confirm I did a quick digital recording of my vinyl - CubeFish's CDR of 004R I don't have the COMA release. Q1: Lazlo and Discogs says the Primal mix runs 5.57, but COMA version is listed as 5.40. Why? As the release doesn't have any times on it I suspect is someone's estimate of the length, which is probably off a few seconds. The COMA might run a little fast, or fade early. Looking at my three copies mentioned above, and looking from first audio to last solid audio (reverb to fade is hard to gauge so I'm looking for a clean point) they run the following: - Archived digital 5:47.200 - New rip 5:47.150 - CubeFish 5:46.661 (https://www.discogs.com/release/9972933-The-KLF-KLF-PURE-ART-1-004R) With the reverb/fade after that last piece of audio I would say 5.50 or so is an accurate length of the track. So I would say the 5.57 is a bad estimate, and the 5.40 COMA version might simply be running a little fast, or, most likely, fades early. Q2: Discrepancies between the rutracker and 'Promo CD Guy' versions: • At 0:34, on top of the slam sound, there's a pair of "sh" (low hiss) sounds, first quietly on the right and then very clearly on the left; in this regard it matches the slam sound in the first seconds of the Techno Slam Mix. • At 5:14, the trio of "tss" sounds is missing altogether. • At 5:28 there's no 2nd snare hit. I am assuming Promo CD Guy is CubeFish (aka Thomas) and we're looking at the same release I mention above. So, comparing that CD with my vinyl rips: 0.34 - I see what you mean. Looking at spectral analysis between the CubeFish CD vs my vinyl vs Techno Slam, the CubeFish 0.34 audio matches that at the start of Techno Slam. This is a very minor difference but good ears on catching that. 5.14 - Either I don't hear/see a difference or I'm misunderstanding. Is this right after the 'my god' followed by 6 tss sounds? 5.28 - I can't say I noticed before but that second snare hit sounds like an error to me - like a static burst. This is on both my vinyl and my digital archive version. When I look at the CubeFish version this is not present, but it's also missing that space in time. This either means it was edited out, or it's a digital glitch in the vinyl mastering. I could be wrong, but Thomas has access to genuine rarities so I sit comfortably on the side that anything coming from him can be considered genuine in it's source. His Lost Trance series most definitely contains new material (ie the extra verse in Go To Sleep). I'm sure his source material isn't from vinyl and more likely some studio DAT. That said I do see some small digital signature issues in the Primal mix (such as small sections are missing upper frequency, something you might see if, for example, you patches a CD rip with a section from a compressed source, but I'm not implying that here). So it's possible his source DAT (assuming that's what it is) might be slightly different than what was sent to the vinyl manufacturer for pressing. About the rutracker guy - One of my biggest peeves on KLF music is how many people try to pass off their work as official releases. There are so many bootleg mega mixes called Deep Shit and some people actual believe these are the legit Deep Shit track (they're not). A lot of the stuff out there is just fan edits. I don't have a problem with this (I do it myself; editing the best parts of various mixes into a preferred version) but they should state this on the sleeve instead of trying to make your own work look like rare, unreleased mixes released on a promo CD. So I would take anything coming from him as 'rare' with a grain of salt until you can confirm what release it's from. That said there ARE releases with genuine unreleased tracks. Lost at Trancentral, the Lost Trance series, Positive Void's releases, to name a few. -paul -----Original Message----- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:05:16 -0700 From: Mike Brown <mike@hyperreal.org> Subject: [KLF] WTIL Primal Remix - slightly different versions To: klf@mailman.xmission.com Message-ID: <20220422050516.GA16093@taz4.hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 For a number of years on rutracker, a Russian collector has been sporadically posting rare KLF material of varying quality, some of it really good. However, it all amounts to a wooden nickel, because most, if not all, of it is fake, i.e. things he sourced elsewhere and compiled onto never-before-seen collections just for sharing, along with implausible claims of their origins. Nevertheless, I'm interested in anything I don't have, so I've been checking it all out, seeing what's worth keeping, and seeing if I can trace the true origins of some each track. For example, I've confirmed that his Pure Trance "rare promo CDRs" are in fact homemade compilations of rips from various sources, sometimes just unedited copies from official CDs and sometimes remastered versions of vinyl rips which debuted relatively recently. Something has me puzzled, though. I'm hoping it can be answered by someone here. Ny questions are just about "What Time is Love? (Primal Remix)". First of all, looking over Lazlo's discography, I'm struck by two things: 1. Does the song really run 5:57 on the original 12" but only 5:40 on the Coma releases? That's a pretty significant difference, like 6%. What accounts for that? 2. Supposedly there's a CD release on Coma, but to date, no such disc has shown up in Discogs, so what's the deal with that? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The KLF: What Time Is Love? (pure trance original) [17 Oct 1988] single 12": 1989 UK (KLF Communications; KLF 004R) [24 Jul 89; yellow/black ps] 5:57 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) 4:28 What Time Is Love? (techno slam mix) 7:05 What Time Is Love? (original) [originally scheduled for 24 Oct 88] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The KLF: What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) [30 Jul 1990] single 7": 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma; COMA 7 011) [black/purple "COMA" sleeve] 5:26 What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) 5:40 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) ["techno slam mix"] 12": 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma COMA 12 7011) [COMA sleeve; some w/wrong lbl] CD5: 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma COMA CD 7011) [may reverse last two tracks] 12": 1990 SE (??; ??) [purple sleeve] 5:30 What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) 5:40 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) ["techno slam mix"] 7:05 What Time Is Love? (original) ["the 1988 pure trance mix"] 4:44 What Time Is Love? (techno gate mix) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ And I've got another mystery... Via rutracker I've obtained a vinyl rip of KLF 004R (supposedly). The Primal Remix on there sounds like it's running at the correct speed, and it finishes just shy of 5:51. There are a few key features of this version I need to point out: • At 0:34 during the "door slam" sound, there's nothing extra on top of it. • At 5:14, at the same time as the "My God" sample, there's a trio of "tss" sounds, first in the center, then right, then left. • At 5:28 there's a truncated 2nd snare hit which sounds like an error. Meanwhle, the "promo CDR" guy's version runs just a hair faster, finishing ¾ of a second sooner than the other rip, closer to 5:50 than 5:51, no big deal. And for the most part, it's exactly the same as the other version. But at those three key points, there are some interesting differences: • At 0:34, on top of the slam sound, there's a pair of "sh" (low hiss) sounds, first quietly on the right and then very clearly on the left; in this regard it matches the slam sound in the first seconds of the Techno Slam Mix. • At 5:14, the trio of "tss" sounds is missing altogether. • At 5:28 there's no 2nd snare hit. It's not possible to construct the Primal Remix from the Techno Slam Mix, so it's not a case of this guy botching an edit (although I wouldn't put it past him). It just seems to me that there's more than one Primal Remix. Those differences at 0:34, 5:14, and 5:28 are just too major. Since I do not have any of the original releases with this mix on them, I'm wondering if someone out there can check their copies and report back on what they find? Thanks for your time. Mike ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ KLF mailing list -- klf@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to klf-leave@mailman.xmission.com ------------------------------ End of KLF Digest, Vol 171, Issue 2 ***********************************
Sorry, I have no answers but this conversation just now inspired me to dig out my 89 Primal Remix 12” out and give it a spin. Coincidentally, just now looking at the clock here in the UK, it is coming up to midnight and the 23 April! That’s a whole year since we last had an instalment of Sample City Thru Trancentral on KLFRS. Will we get Chapter 2, the Pure Trance series tonight, or something else, or nothing at all? I live in hope, but am not holding my breath. Paul, you mentioned the Cubefish Lost Trance releases. I was considering getting a copy of Lost Trance 4, it’s untitled. Is it “Turn Up The Strobe” on side A as in the earlier more minimalist mix of The JAMs grey vinyl “It’s Grim Up North” that featured on the Stadium House VHS video? Over and out for now fellow space cadets. ________________________________ From: Paul via KLF <klf@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 9:41 pm To: klf@mailman.xmission.com <klf@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: Paul <themgnt@aol.com> Subject: [KLF] Re: WTIL Primal Remix - slightly different versions Apologies. I meant to click SAVE, not Send. I wasn't done... Please disregard the earlier email. I'm on the digest so this might be redundant. I have three copies of this: - My archived digital version - this is most likely my personal rip. Around 20 years ago I digitized all my K and hunted down digital copies if they were out there. I didn't keep notes on sources but this *looks* like my work. I don't seem to have this on other digital - A fresh rip of my vinyl - because I couldn't confirm I did a quick digital recording of my vinyl - CubeFish's CDR of 004R I don't have the COMA release. Q1: Lazlo and Discogs says the Primal mix runs 5.57, but COMA version is listed as 5.40. Why? As the release doesn't have any times on it I suspect is someone's estimate of the length, which is probably off a few seconds. The COMA might run a little fast, or fade early. Looking at my three copies mentioned above, and looking from first audio to last solid audio (reverb to fade is hard to gauge so I'm looking for a clean point) they run the following: - Archived digital 5:47.200 - New rip 5:47.150 - CubeFish 5:46.661 (https://www.discogs.com/release/9972933-The-KLF-KLF-PURE-ART-1-004R) With the reverb/fade after that last piece of audio I would say 5.50 or so is an accurate length of the track. So I would say the 5.57 is a bad estimate, and the 5.40 COMA version might simply be running a little fast, or, most likely, fades early. Q2: Discrepancies between the rutracker and 'Promo CD Guy' versions: • At 0:34, on top of the slam sound, there's a pair of "sh" (low hiss) sounds, first quietly on the right and then very clearly on the left; in this regard it matches the slam sound in the first seconds of the Techno Slam Mix. • At 5:14, the trio of "tss" sounds is missing altogether. • At 5:28 there's no 2nd snare hit. I am assuming Promo CD Guy is CubeFish (aka Thomas) and we're looking at the same release I mention above. So, comparing that CD with my vinyl rips: 0.34 - I see what you mean. Looking at spectral analysis between the CubeFish CD vs my vinyl vs Techno Slam, the CubeFish 0.34 audio matches that at the start of Techno Slam. This is a very minor difference but good ears on catching that. 5.14 - Either I don't hear/see a difference or I'm misunderstanding. Is this right after the 'my god' followed by 6 tss sounds? 5.28 - I can't say I noticed before but that second snare hit sounds like an error to me - like a static burst. This is on both my vinyl and my digital archive version. When I look at the CubeFish version this is not present, but it's also missing that space in time. This either means it was edited out, or it's a digital glitch in the vinyl mastering. I could be wrong, but Thomas has access to genuine rarities so I sit comfortably on the side that anything coming from him can be considered genuine in it's source. His Lost Trance series most definitely contains new material (ie the extra verse in Go To Sleep). I'm sure his source material isn't from vinyl and more likely some studio DAT. That said I do see some small digital signature issues in the Primal mix (such as small sections are missing upper frequency, something you might see if, for example, you patches a CD rip with a section from a compressed source, but I'm not implying that here). So it's possible his source DAT (assuming that's what it is) might be slightly different than what was sent to the vinyl manufacturer for pressing. About the rutracker guy - One of my biggest peeves on KLF music is how many people try to pass off their work as official releases. There are so many bootleg mega mixes called Deep Shit and some people actual believe these are the legit Deep Shit track (they're not). A lot of the stuff out there is just fan edits. I don't have a problem with this (I do it myself; editing the best parts of various mixes into a preferred version) but they should state this on the sleeve instead of trying to make your own work look like rare, unreleased mixes released on a promo CD. So I would take anything coming from him as 'rare' with a grain of salt until you can confirm what release it's from. That said there ARE releases with genuine unreleased tracks. Lost at Trancentral, the Lost Trance series, Positive Void's releases, to name a few. -paul -----Original Message----- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:05:16 -0700 From: Mike Brown <mike@hyperreal.org> Subject: [KLF] WTIL Primal Remix - slightly different versions To: klf@mailman.xmission.com Message-ID: <20220422050516.GA16093@taz4.hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 For a number of years on rutracker, a Russian collector has been sporadically posting rare KLF material of varying quality, some of it really good. However, it all amounts to a wooden nickel, because most, if not all, of it is fake, i.e. things he sourced elsewhere and compiled onto never-before-seen collections just for sharing, along with implausible claims of their origins. Nevertheless, I'm interested in anything I don't have, so I've been checking it all out, seeing what's worth keeping, and seeing if I can trace the true origins of some each track. For example, I've confirmed that his Pure Trance "rare promo CDRs" are in fact homemade compilations of rips from various sources, sometimes just unedited copies from official CDs and sometimes remastered versions of vinyl rips which debuted relatively recently. Something has me puzzled, though. I'm hoping it can be answered by someone here. Ny questions are just about "What Time is Love? (Primal Remix)". First of all, looking over Lazlo's discography, I'm struck by two things: 1. Does the song really run 5:57 on the original 12" but only 5:40 on the Coma releases? That's a pretty significant difference, like 6%. What accounts for that? 2. Supposedly there's a CD release on Coma, but to date, no such disc has shown up in Discogs, so what's the deal with that? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The KLF: What Time Is Love? (pure trance original) [17 Oct 1988] single 12": 1989 UK (KLF Communications; KLF 004R) [24 Jul 89; yellow/black ps] 5:57 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) 4:28 What Time Is Love? (techno slam mix) 7:05 What Time Is Love? (original) [originally scheduled for 24 Oct 88] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The KLF: What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) [30 Jul 1990] single 7": 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma; COMA 7 011) [black/purple "COMA" sleeve] 5:26 What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) 5:40 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) ["techno slam mix"] 12": 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma COMA 12 7011) [COMA sleeve; some w/wrong lbl] CD5: 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma COMA CD 7011) [may reverse last two tracks] 12": 1990 SE (??; ??) [purple sleeve] 5:30 What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) 5:40 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) ["techno slam mix"] 7:05 What Time Is Love? (original) ["the 1988 pure trance mix"] 4:44 What Time Is Love? (techno gate mix) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ And I've got another mystery... Via rutracker I've obtained a vinyl rip of KLF 004R (supposedly). The Primal Remix on there sounds like it's running at the correct speed, and it finishes just shy of 5:51. There are a few key features of this version I need to point out: • At 0:34 during the "door slam" sound, there's nothing extra on top of it. • At 5:14, at the same time as the "My God" sample, there's a trio of "tss" sounds, first in the center, then right, then left. • At 5:28 there's a truncated 2nd snare hit which sounds like an error. Meanwhle, the "promo CDR" guy's version runs just a hair faster, finishing ¾ of a second sooner than the other rip, closer to 5:50 than 5:51, no big deal. And for the most part, it's exactly the same as the other version. But at those three key points, there are some interesting differences: • At 0:34, on top of the slam sound, there's a pair of "sh" (low hiss) sounds, first quietly on the right and then very clearly on the left; in this regard it matches the slam sound in the first seconds of the Techno Slam Mix. • At 5:14, the trio of "tss" sounds is missing altogether. • At 5:28 there's no 2nd snare hit. It's not possible to construct the Primal Remix from the Techno Slam Mix, so it's not a case of this guy botching an edit (although I wouldn't put it past him). It just seems to me that there's more than one Primal Remix. Those differences at 0:34, 5:14, and 5:28 are just too major. Since I do not have any of the original releases with this mix on them, I'm wondering if someone out there can check their copies and report back on what they find? Thanks for your time. Mike ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ KLF mailing list -- klf@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to klf-leave@mailman.xmission.com ------------------------------ End of KLF Digest, Vol 171, Issue 2 *********************************** _______________________________________________ KLF mailing list -- klf@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to klf-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Report list abuse to list-abuse at studio-nibble.com
Hello Yes the A side of Lost Trance 4 is untitled. It is a newly discovered Pure Trance track (Probably not TUTS) that was found on a VHS copy of The White Room that Bill Drummond owned. It could be another try at Love Trance or possibly a very early 3AM Eternal. Jimmy once described a version that was very different that got wiped from the studio tapes. Who knows? This is very New beat in style with an almost Eastern vibe Tom (AKA Cubefish) Sent from my iPhone On 22 Apr 2022, at 23:59, r.clarke--- via KLF <klf@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: Sorry, I have no answers but this conversation just now inspired me to dig out my 89 Primal Remix 12” out and give it a spin. Coincidentally, just now looking at the clock here in the UK, it is coming up to midnight and the 23 April! That’s a whole year since we last had an instalment of Sample City Thru Trancentral on KLFRS. Will we get Chapter 2, the Pure Trance series tonight, or something else, or nothing at all? I live in hope, but am not holding my breath. Paul, you mentioned the Cubefish Lost Trance releases. I was considering getting a copy of Lost Trance 4, it’s untitled. Is it “Turn Up The Strobe” on side A as in the earlier more minimalist mix of The JAMs grey vinyl “It’s Grim Up North” that featured on the Stadium House VHS video? Over and out for now fellow space cadets. ________________________________ From: Paul via KLF <klf@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 9:41 pm To: klf@mailman.xmission.com <klf@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: Paul <themgnt@aol.com> Subject: [KLF] Re: WTIL Primal Remix - slightly different versions Apologies. I meant to click SAVE, not Send. I wasn't done... Please disregard the earlier email. I'm on the digest so this might be redundant. I have three copies of this: - My archived digital version - this is most likely my personal rip. Around 20 years ago I digitized all my K and hunted down digital copies if they were out there. I didn't keep notes on sources but this *looks* like my work. I don't seem to have this on other digital - A fresh rip of my vinyl - because I couldn't confirm I did a quick digital recording of my vinyl - CubeFish's CDR of 004R I don't have the COMA release. Q1: Lazlo and Discogs says the Primal mix runs 5.57, but COMA version is listed as 5.40. Why? As the release doesn't have any times on it I suspect is someone's estimate of the length, which is probably off a few seconds. The COMA might run a little fast, or fade early. Looking at my three copies mentioned above, and looking from first audio to last solid audio (reverb to fade is hard to gauge so I'm looking for a clean point) they run the following: - Archived digital 5:47.200 - New rip 5:47.150 - CubeFish 5:46.661 (https://www.discogs.com/release/9972933-The-KLF-KLF-PURE-ART-1-004R) With the reverb/fade after that last piece of audio I would say 5.50 or so is an accurate length of the track. So I would say the 5.57 is a bad estimate, and the 5.40 COMA version might simply be running a little fast, or, most likely, fades early. Q2: Discrepancies between the rutracker and 'Promo CD Guy' versions: • At 0:34, on top of the slam sound, there's a pair of "sh" (low hiss) sounds, first quietly on the right and then very clearly on the left; in this regard it matches the slam sound in the first seconds of the Techno Slam Mix. • At 5:14, the trio of "tss" sounds is missing altogether. • At 5:28 there's no 2nd snare hit. I am assuming Promo CD Guy is CubeFish (aka Thomas) and we're looking at the same release I mention above. So, comparing that CD with my vinyl rips: 0.34 - I see what you mean. Looking at spectral analysis between the CubeFish CD vs my vinyl vs Techno Slam, the CubeFish 0.34 audio matches that at the start of Techno Slam. This is a very minor difference but good ears on catching that. 5.14 - Either I don't hear/see a difference or I'm misunderstanding. Is this right after the 'my god' followed by 6 tss sounds? 5.28 - I can't say I noticed before but that second snare hit sounds like an error to me - like a static burst. This is on both my vinyl and my digital archive version. When I look at the CubeFish version this is not present, but it's also missing that space in time. This either means it was edited out, or it's a digital glitch in the vinyl mastering. I could be wrong, but Thomas has access to genuine rarities so I sit comfortably on the side that anything coming from him can be considered genuine in it's source. His Lost Trance series most definitely contains new material (ie the extra verse in Go To Sleep). I'm sure his source material isn't from vinyl and more likely some studio DAT. That said I do see some small digital signature issues in the Primal mix (such as small sections are missing upper frequency, something you might see if, for example, you patches a CD rip with a section from a compressed source, but I'm not implying that here). So it's possible his source DAT (assuming that's what it is) might be slightly different than what was sent to the vinyl manufacturer for pressing. About the rutracker guy - One of my biggest peeves on KLF music is how many people try to pass off their work as official releases. There are so many bootleg mega mixes called Deep Shit and some people actual believe these are the legit Deep Shit track (they're not). A lot of the stuff out there is just fan edits. I don't have a problem with this (I do it myself; editing the best parts of various mixes into a preferred version) but they should state this on the sleeve instead of trying to make your own work look like rare, unreleased mixes released on a promo CD. So I would take anything coming from him as 'rare' with a grain of salt until you can confirm what release it's from. That said there ARE releases with genuine unreleased tracks. Lost at Trancentral, the Lost Trance series, Positive Void's releases, to name a few. -paul -----Original Message----- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:05:16 -0700 From: Mike Brown <mike@hyperreal.org> Subject: [KLF] WTIL Primal Remix - slightly different versions To: klf@mailman.xmission.com Message-ID: <20220422050516.GA16093@taz4.hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 For a number of years on rutracker, a Russian collector has been sporadically posting rare KLF material of varying quality, some of it really good. However, it all amounts to a wooden nickel, because most, if not all, of it is fake, i.e. things he sourced elsewhere and compiled onto never-before-seen collections just for sharing, along with implausible claims of their origins. Nevertheless, I'm interested in anything I don't have, so I've been checking it all out, seeing what's worth keeping, and seeing if I can trace the true origins of some each track. For example, I've confirmed that his Pure Trance "rare promo CDRs" are in fact homemade compilations of rips from various sources, sometimes just unedited copies from official CDs and sometimes remastered versions of vinyl rips which debuted relatively recently. Something has me puzzled, though. I'm hoping it can be answered by someone here. Ny questions are just about "What Time is Love? (Primal Remix)". First of all, looking over Lazlo's discography, I'm struck by two things: 1. Does the song really run 5:57 on the original 12" but only 5:40 on the Coma releases? That's a pretty significant difference, like 6%. What accounts for that? 2. Supposedly there's a CD release on Coma, but to date, no such disc has shown up in Discogs, so what's the deal with that? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The KLF: What Time Is Love? (pure trance original) [17 Oct 1988] single 12": 1989 UK (KLF Communications; KLF 004R) [24 Jul 89; yellow/black ps] 5:57 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) 4:28 What Time Is Love? (techno slam mix) 7:05 What Time Is Love? (original) [originally scheduled for 24 Oct 88] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The KLF: What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) [30 Jul 1990] single 7": 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma; COMA 7 011) [black/purple "COMA" sleeve] 5:26 What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) 5:40 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) ["techno slam mix"] 12": 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma COMA 12 7011) [COMA sleeve; some w/wrong lbl] CD5: 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma COMA CD 7011) [may reverse last two tracks] 12": 1990 SE (??; ??) [purple sleeve] 5:30 What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) 5:40 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) ["techno slam mix"] 7:05 What Time Is Love? (original) ["the 1988 pure trance mix"] 4:44 What Time Is Love? (techno gate mix) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ And I've got another mystery... Via rutracker I've obtained a vinyl rip of KLF 004R (supposedly). The Primal Remix on there sounds like it's running at the correct speed, and it finishes just shy of 5:51. There are a few key features of this version I need to point out: • At 0:34 during the "door slam" sound, there's nothing extra on top of it. • At 5:14, at the same time as the "My God" sample, there's a trio of "tss" sounds, first in the center, then right, then left. • At 5:28 there's a truncated 2nd snare hit which sounds like an error. Meanwhle, the "promo CDR" guy's version runs just a hair faster, finishing ¾ of a second sooner than the other rip, closer to 5:50 than 5:51, no big deal. And for the most part, it's exactly the same as the other version. But at those three key points, there are some interesting differences: • At 0:34, on top of the slam sound, there's a pair of "sh" (low hiss) sounds, first quietly on the right and then very clearly on the left; in this regard it matches the slam sound in the first seconds of the Techno Slam Mix. • At 5:14, the trio of "tss" sounds is missing altogether. • At 5:28 there's no 2nd snare hit. It's not possible to construct the Primal Remix from the Techno Slam Mix, so it's not a case of this guy botching an edit (although I wouldn't put it past him). It just seems to me that there's more than one Primal Remix. Those differences at 0:34, 5:14, and 5:28 are just too major. Since I do not have any of the original releases with this mix on them, I'm wondering if someone out there can check their copies and report back on what they find? Thanks for your time. Mike ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ KLF mailing list -- klf@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to klf-leave@mailman.xmission.com ------------------------------ End of KLF Digest, Vol 171, Issue 2 *********************************** _______________________________________________ KLF mailing list -- klf@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to klf-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Report list abuse to list-abuse at studio-nibble.com _______________________________________________ KLF mailing list -- klf@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to klf-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s Report list abuse to list-abuse at studio-nibble.com
TUTS sounding like IGUN minimal versiin was done by me over decade ago and posted here. Just edit of THIA IS WHAT KLF IS ABOUT credits music. Now it has life of it's own. sob., 23 kwi 2022, 00:59 użytkownik r.clarke--- via KLF < klf@mailman.xmission.com> napisał:
Sorry, I have no answers but this conversation just now inspired me to dig out my 89 Primal Remix 12” out and give it a spin.
Coincidentally, just now looking at the clock here in the UK, it is coming up to midnight and the 23 April! That’s a whole year since we last had an instalment of Sample City Thru Trancentral on KLFRS.
Will we get Chapter 2, the Pure Trance series tonight, or something else, or nothing at all? I live in hope, but am not holding my breath.
Paul, you mentioned the Cubefish Lost Trance releases. I was considering getting a copy of Lost Trance 4, it’s untitled. Is it “Turn Up The Strobe” on side A as in the earlier more minimalist mix of The JAMs grey vinyl “It’s Grim Up North” that featured on the Stadium House VHS video?
Over and out for now fellow space cadets.
------------------------------ *From:* Paul via KLF <klf@mailman.xmission.com> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2022 9:41 pm *To:* klf@mailman.xmission.com <klf@mailman.xmission.com> *Cc:* Paul <themgnt@aol.com> *Subject:* [KLF] Re: WTIL Primal Remix - slightly different versions
Apologies. I meant to click SAVE, not Send. I wasn't done...
Please disregard the earlier email.
I'm on the digest so this might be redundant.
I have three copies of this: - My archived digital version - this is most likely my personal rip. Around 20 years ago I digitized all my K and hunted down digital copies if they were out there. I didn't keep notes on sources but this *looks* like my work. I don't seem to have this on other digital - A fresh rip of my vinyl - because I couldn't confirm I did a quick digital recording of my vinyl - CubeFish's CDR of 004R
I don't have the COMA release.
Q1: Lazlo and Discogs says the Primal mix runs 5.57, but COMA version is listed as 5.40. Why?
As the release doesn't have any times on it I suspect is someone's estimate of the length, which is probably off a few seconds. The COMA might run a little fast, or fade early.
Looking at my three copies mentioned above, and looking from first audio to last solid audio (reverb to fade is hard to gauge so I'm looking for a clean point) they run the following: - Archived digital 5:47.200 - New rip 5:47.150 - CubeFish 5:46.661 (https://www.discogs.com/release/9972933-The-KLF-KLF-PURE-ART-1-004R)
With the reverb/fade after that last piece of audio I would say 5.50 or so is an accurate length of the track. So I would say the 5.57 is a bad estimate, and the 5.40 COMA version might simply be running a little fast, or, most likely, fades early.
Q2: Discrepancies between the rutracker and 'Promo CD Guy' versions: • At 0:34, on top of the slam sound, there's a pair of "sh" (low hiss) sounds, first quietly on the right and then very clearly on the left; in this regard it matches the slam sound in the first seconds of the Techno Slam Mix. • At 5:14, the trio of "tss" sounds is missing altogether. • At 5:28 there's no 2nd snare hit.
I am assuming Promo CD Guy is CubeFish (aka Thomas) and we're looking at the same release I mention above. So, comparing that CD with my vinyl rips: 0.34 - I see what you mean. Looking at spectral analysis between the CubeFish CD vs my vinyl vs Techno Slam, the CubeFish 0.34 audio matches that at the start of Techno Slam. This is a very minor difference but good ears on catching that. 5.14 - Either I don't hear/see a difference or I'm misunderstanding. Is this right after the 'my god' followed by 6 tss sounds? 5.28 - I can't say I noticed before but that second snare hit sounds like an error to me - like a static burst. This is on both my vinyl and my digital archive version. When I look at the CubeFish version this is not present, but it's also missing that space in time. This either means it was edited out, or it's a digital glitch in the vinyl mastering.
I could be wrong, but Thomas has access to genuine rarities so I sit comfortably on the side that anything coming from him can be considered genuine in it's source. His Lost Trance series most definitely contains new material (ie the extra verse in Go To Sleep). I'm sure his source material isn't from vinyl and more likely some studio DAT. That said I do see some small digital signature issues in the Primal mix (such as small sections are missing upper frequency, something you might see if, for example, you patches a CD rip with a section from a compressed source, but I'm not implying that here). So it's possible his source DAT (assuming that's what it is) might be slightly different than what was sent to the vinyl manufacturer for pressing.
About the rutracker guy - One of my biggest peeves on KLF music is how many people try to pass off their work as official releases. There are so many bootleg mega mixes called Deep Shit and some people actual believe these are the legit Deep Shit track (they're not). A lot of the stuff out there is just fan edits. I don't have a problem with this (I do it myself; editing the best parts of various mixes into a preferred version) but they should state this on the sleeve instead of trying to make your own work look like rare, unreleased mixes released on a promo CD. So I would take anything coming from him as 'rare' with a grain of salt until you can confirm what release it's from.
That said there ARE releases with genuine unreleased tracks. Lost at Trancentral, the Lost Trance series, Positive Void's releases, to name a few.
-paul
-----Original Message-----
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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 22:05:16 -0700 From: Mike Brown <mike@hyperreal.org> Subject: [KLF] WTIL Primal Remix - slightly different versions To: klf@mailman.xmission.com Message-ID: <20220422050516.GA16093@taz4.hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
For a number of years on rutracker, a Russian collector has been sporadically posting rare KLF material of varying quality, some of it really good. However, it all amounts to a wooden nickel, because most, if not all, of it is fake, i.e. things he sourced elsewhere and compiled onto never-before-seen collections just for sharing, along with implausible claims of their origins.
Nevertheless, I'm interested in anything I don't have, so I've been checking it all out, seeing what's worth keeping, and seeing if I can trace the true origins of some each track. For example, I've confirmed that his Pure Trance "rare promo CDRs" are in fact homemade compilations of rips from various sources, sometimes just unedited copies from official CDs and sometimes remastered versions of vinyl rips which debuted relatively recently.
Something has me puzzled, though. I'm hoping it can be answered by someone here. Ny questions are just about "What Time is Love? (Primal Remix)".
First of all, looking over Lazlo's discography, I'm struck by two things:
1. Does the song really run 5:57 on the original 12" but only 5:40 on the Coma releases? That's a pretty significant difference, like 6%. What accounts for that?
2. Supposedly there's a CD release on Coma, but to date, no such disc has shown up in Discogs, so what's the deal with that?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The KLF: What Time Is Love? (pure trance original) [17 Oct 1988] single
12": 1989 UK (KLF Communications; KLF 004R) [24 Jul 89; yellow/black ps] 5:57 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) 4:28 What Time Is Love? (techno slam mix) 7:05 What Time Is Love? (original) [originally scheduled for 24 Oct 88]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The KLF: What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) [30 Jul 1990] single
7": 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma; COMA 7 011) [black/purple "COMA" sleeve] 5:26 What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) 5:40 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) ["techno slam mix"]
12": 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma COMA 12 7011) [COMA sleeve; some w/wrong lbl] CD5: 1990 DK (Mega Records/Coma COMA CD 7011) [may reverse last two tracks] 12": 1990 SE (??; ??) [purple sleeve] 5:30 What Time Is Love? (live at trancentral) 5:40 What Time Is Love? (primal remix) ["techno slam mix"] 7:05 What Time Is Love? (original) ["the 1988 pure trance mix"] 4:44 What Time Is Love? (techno gate mix)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I've got another mystery...
Via rutracker I've obtained a vinyl rip of KLF 004R (supposedly). The Primal Remix on there sounds like it's running at the correct speed, and it finishes just shy of 5:51. There are a few key features of this version I need to point out:
• At 0:34 during the "door slam" sound, there's nothing extra on top of it. • At 5:14, at the same time as the "My God" sample, there's a trio of "tss" sounds, first in the center, then right, then left. • At 5:28 there's a truncated 2nd snare hit which sounds like an error.
Meanwhle, the "promo CDR" guy's version runs just a hair faster, finishing ¾ of a second sooner than the other rip, closer to 5:50 than 5:51, no big deal. And for the most part, it's exactly the same as the other version. But at those three key points, there are some interesting differences: • At 0:34, on top of the slam sound, there's a pair of "sh" (low hiss) sounds, first quietly on the right and then very clearly on the left; in this regard it matches the slam sound in the first seconds of the Techno Slam Mix. • At 5:14, the trio of "tss" sounds is missing altogether. • At 5:28 there's no 2nd snare hit.
It's not possible to construct the Primal Remix from the Techno Slam Mix, so it's not a case of this guy botching an edit (although I wouldn't put it past him). It just seems to me that there's more than one Primal Remix. Those differences at 0:34, 5:14, and 5:28 are just too major.
Since I do not have any of the original releases with this mix on them, I'm wondering if someone out there can check their copies and report back on what they find?
Thanks for your time.
Mike
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On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 03:41:00PM -0500, Paul via KLF wrote:
I am assuming Promo CD Guy is CubeFish
Thanks and sorry if I was confusing. I've never been on Facebook, I've not heard the CubeFish releases, my only sources for KLF material are my own physical collection and whatever people are sharing on rutracker and Soulseek. There's not a separate Promo CD Guy; there's just "truckdriver975", the Russian dude on rutracker who claims that what he has posted are "promo CDRs" from the late '80s(!), when in fact he's just been making up his own compilations from various sources. One of those sources may well be CubeFish material, though! Rutracker is an enormous Russian-language bittorrent community with open membership. Hopefully it's OK to just post the link to the torrent info page in their forum. The link from there to the actual torrent will be a magnet link unless you create an account and log in, but it should work either way. "[CDM] The KLF - Pure Trance Remixes (4 Promo CDR)" https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=82975616 These are the fake releases by rutracker user "truckdriver975". "The KLF - Singles (23 VinylRip) [16 bit \ 44.1 khz] 1988-1992" https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3352974 This is a collection sourced from what.cd, where it was uploaded by user "mahoohoo", who may also be who did the vinyl transfers. So, just to be clear, I'm comparing the Primal Remix from KLF 004R in this seemingly legitimate vinyl collection to the Primal Remix on the first disc of truckdriver975's fake CDRs.
5.14 - Either I don't hear/see a difference or I'm misunderstanding. Is this right after the 'my god' followed by 6 tss sounds?
KLF 004R has three "tss" sounds right after "My God". I am not talking about the continuous "sh-sh-sh-sh" sound that goes before, during, and after the "My God". Rather, there's three higher-pitched "tss" sounds, first in the middle, 2nd on the right, 3rd on the left, then it's done. The version on the "promo CDR" does not have these sounds on it. At this point it sounds like you're saying the KLF 004R rip is correct, and the fake CDR version is probably a copy of what CubeFish released, which is official but has these tiny differences as compared to KLF 004R. Does that sound right? Since your KLF 004R rips all seem to be about the same duration, it seems the 5:57 timing for this track on KLF 004R on both Discogs and in Lazlo's discography has never been correct. I doubt someone played just that one track 6% slow (which would sound weird) when the durations of the other two tracks are pretty much correct; someone probably just made a mistake. What's on the COMA releases and their actual durations are yet to be determined; it's difficult to find rips of these. I guess Lazlo's discography is just wrong about the existence of a CD version of the COMA release. I can't find any evidence of it online.
participants (5)
-
Adam Czarnecki -
Mike Brown -
Paul -
r.clarke＠btinternet.com -
tom dawson