Re: [Fractint] What is the point of hiding a formula from FRACTINT?
On 2010-05-07 05:50, Jay Litwyn wrote:
Re: [Fractint] What is the point of hiding a formula from FRACTINT? Why am I hiding formulas from Fractint? I am confused. I have checked my mailing list posts and it appears the formula information was included if needed. For Fractints built in formulas no formula information is necessary. As for my blog(http://maxitersfractalfollies.blogspot.com) I don't include formula or parameter information because at the moment the blog serves as a supplement to my mailing list posts and used mainly as a stash to display the pre-calculated fractals and give list members a chance to decide whether to generate the fractals themselves. This is a similar arrangement to Jim Muth's FOTD being hosted at http://www.nahee.com/FOTD/. If asked I will be glad to include par and frm information on my blog. The main reason I post to the mailing list to begin with is to completely share the fractal generating information. Roger Alexander _________________________________________________________________ MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729707
All that I *was* talking about, Roger, is the "frm:" prefix. Apparently, it is a stub for "Data Rights Management", which is a theoretical, logistical, and practical pain. I would recommend that if a "frm:" prefix is there, then do not take it out. If it is not there, then write a creative commons license, instead. Without an explicit license, I think text in a list like this is CC-BY, for instance. In your case in particular, I think you are getting good enough that you might want to put -NC- (non-commercial) on your blog to ensure that people are not permitted to make money from your stuff -- uh...without your permission, which you could charge royalties for (if you did not lose them to your lawyer :-), and ignoring internet service fees. I would like to believe that things are "all rights reserved" on web pages by default, and I read something to the effect of "take it" on one of your blog pages that might over-ride that. I am no lawyer (IANL). That makes me happy. _______ Q: What is the difference between a prostitute and a lawyer. A: After you die, a hooker will stop screwing you.
On 2010-05-10 08:45, Jay Litwyn wrote:
All that I *was* talking about, Roger, is the "frm:" prefix. Apparently, it is a stub for "Data Rights Management", which is a theoretical, logistical, and practical pain. I would recommend that if a "frm:" prefix is there, then do not take it out. If it is not there, then write a creative commons license, instead. Without an explicit license, I think text in a list like this is CC-BY, for instance. In your case in particular, I think you are getting good enough that you might want to put -NC- (non-commercial) on your blog to ensure that people are not permitted to make money from your stuff -- uh...without your permission, which you could charge royalties for (if you did not lose them to your lawyer :-), and ignoring internet service fees. I would like to believe that things are "all rights reserved" on web pages by default, and I read something to the effect of "take it" on one of your blog pages that might over-ride that. I am no lawyer (IANL). That makes me happy.
A number ot thoughts. First that pesky frm: convention which has been around about as long as the mailing list. I don't know where it started but I do know where it is useful-very long posts. Suppose you had a long post analyzing a formula. To distinguish the formula being dissected versus the functional formula use the frm: designation. Voila no confusion. For a DRM method it is ridiculously feeble-place the cursor in the right place delete four characters and you've defeated the protection. As for repeating it with every mailing list post Jim Muth and I repeat the URL of websites where we upload the completed images with every post. A little bit about creative rights. I license my stuff under the Creative Commons attribution license-use the images for whatever you want, including derivative works, give me credit as the creator. Go to Flickr and search under people for Max Iter to see my stuff. I do this for two reasons. First I want my visitors to feel welcome. The images? Like 'em keep 'em. Secondly I am a law abiding citizen and the law of the land is Murphy's Law. The following reasoning applies to the world wide web not email or USENET. One core principle of the web is the concept of the link. You put up a page people can link to it or its elements. You put something up, by the very nature of html structure you consent to having your information shared with everybody. Maybe. Or maybe I can reserve some rights. Anyway I take the pessimistic approach and accept the possibility everything I post on the web can be shared on the web.
Hmmm, as far as I know, Fractint uses frm: to indicate a formula contained as part of a parameter file? Not DRM or anything like that. Roger Alexander wrote:
On 2010-05-10 08:45, Jay Litwyn wrote:
All that I *was* talking about, Roger, is the "frm:" prefix. Apparently, it is a stub for "Data Rights Management", which is a theoretical, logistical, and practical pain. I would recommend that if a "frm:" prefix is there, then do not take it out. If it is not there, then write a creative commons license, instead. Without an explicit license, I think text in a list like this is CC-BY, for instance. In your case in particular, I think you are getting good enough that you might want to put -NC- (non-commercial) on your blog to ensure that people are not permitted to make money from your stuff -- uh...without your permission, which you could charge royalties for (if you did not lose them to your lawyer :-), and ignoring internet service fees. I would like to believe that things are "all rights reserved" on web pages by default, and I read something to the effect of "take it" on one of your blog pages that might over-ride that. I am no lawyer (IANL). That makes me happy.
A number ot thoughts. First that pesky frm: convention which has been around about as long as the mailing list. I don't know where it started but I do know where it is useful-very long posts. Suppose you had a long post analyzing a formula. To distinguish the formula being dissected versus the functional formula use the frm: designation. Voila no confusion. For a DRM method it is ridiculously feeble-place the cursor in the right place delete four characters and you've defeated the protection. As for repeating it with every mailing list post Jim Muth and I repeat the URL of websites where we upload the completed images with every post. A little bit about creative rights. I license my stuff under the Creative Commons attribution license-use the images for whatever you want, including derivative works, give me credit as the creator. Go to Flickr and search under people for Max Iter to see my stuff. I do this for two reasons. First I want my visitors to feel welcome. The images? Like 'em keep 'em. Secondly I am a law abiding citizen and the law of the land is Murphy's Law. The following reasoning applies to the world wide web not email or USENET. One core principle of the web is the concept of the link. You put up a page people can link to it or its elements. You put something up, by the very nature of html structure you consent to having your information shared with everybody. Maybe. Or maybe I can reserve some rights. Anyway I take the pessimistic approach and accept the possibility everything I post on the web can be shared on the web.
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-- David gnome@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community
Of course, and it was there before DRM existed...... -----Original Message----- From: fractint-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:fractint-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of david Sent: 11 May 2010 07:48 To: Fractint and General Fractals Discussion Subject: Re: [Fractint] What is the point of hiding a formula from FRACTINT? Hmmm, as far as I know, Fractint uses frm: to indicate a formula contained as part of a parameter file? Not DRM or anything like that. Roger Alexander wrote:
On 2010-05-10 08:45, Jay Litwyn wrote:
All that I *was* talking about, Roger, is the "frm:" prefix. Apparently, it is a stub for "Data Rights Management", which is a theoretical, logistical, and practical pain. I would recommend that if a "frm:" prefix is there, then do not take it out. If it is not there, then write a creative commons license, instead. Without an explicit license, I think text in a list like this is CC-BY, for instance. In your case in particular, I think you are getting good enough that you might want to put -NC- (non-commercial) on your blog to ensure that people are not permitted to make money from your stuff -- uh...without your permission, which you could charge royalties for (if you did not lose them to your lawyer :-), and ignoring internet service fees. I would like to believe that things are "all rights reserved" on web pages by default, and I read something to the effect of "take it" on one of your blog pages
that
might over-ride that. I am no lawyer (IANL). That makes me happy.
A number ot thoughts. First that pesky frm: convention which has been around about as long as the mailing list. I don't know where it started but I do know where it is useful-very long posts. Suppose you had a long post analyzing a formula. To distinguish the formula being dissected versus the functional formula use the frm: designation. Voila no confusion. For a DRM method it is ridiculously feeble-place the cursor in the right place delete four characters and you've defeated the protection. As for repeating it with every mailing list post Jim Muth and I repeat the URL of websites where we upload the completed images with every post. A little bit about creative rights. I license my stuff under the Creative Commons attribution license-use the images for whatever you want, including derivative works, give me credit as the creator. Go to Flickr and search under people for Max Iter to see my stuff. I do this for two reasons. First I want my visitors to feel welcome. The images? Like 'em keep 'em. Secondly I am a law abiding citizen and the law of the land is Murphy's Law. The following reasoning applies to the world wide web not email or USENET. One core principle of the web is the concept of the link. You put up a page people can link to it or its elements. You put something up, by the very nature of html structure you consent to having your information shared with everybody. Maybe. Or maybe I can reserve some rights. Anyway I take the pessimistic approach and accept the possibility everything I post on the web can be shared on the web.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ Fractint mailing list Fractint@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fractint
-- David gnome@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community _______________________________________________ Fractint mailing list Fractint@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fractint
"Data Rights Management" existed on mainframes in the 1980's (and probably before). On Michigan Terminal System, I could deny you access to any file that was not coming through a particular program. There was BOUL:MEETING, for instance, that had read/write/expand access to spew-files (as some people called them)--everything but rename|destroy access. People could use BOUL:MEETING to add to such files, and they could not write to the files directly (delete comments, for instance), nor could they modify what little personal information was stored in the file (the last message a particular user has read). People could not directly read the files, either. Lots of files on MTS could only be read by people while they were being $RUN: you could not see them through $DEBUG, for instance. The idea that "frm:" is a DRM *stub* came from Maryetta's answer: a doctor's intention in using it was to deny casual users of FRACTINT access to a formula. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paddy Duncan" <padski@padski.co.uk> To: "'Fractint and General Fractals Discussion'" <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:22 AM Subject: Re: [Fractint] What is the point of hiding a formula from FRACTINT?
Of course, and it was there before DRM existed......
-----Original Message----- From: fractint-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:fractint-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of david Sent: 11 May 2010 07:48 To: Fractint and General Fractals Discussion Subject: Re: [Fractint] What is the point of hiding a formula from FRACTINT?
Hmmm, as far as I know, Fractint uses frm: to indicate a formula contained as part of a parameter file? Not DRM or anything like that.
If I put a formula into a parameter file, then I am better off, that is I will experience more convenient access to that formula if I do not lead it with "frm:". If I lead it with "frm:", then I will not be able to see it from the t/formula/F6... selection menu.
Roger Alexander wrote:
On 2010-05-10 08:45, Jay Litwyn wrote:
All that I *was* talking about, Roger, is the "frm:" prefix. Apparently, it is a stub for "Data Rights Management", which is a theoretical, logistical, and practical pain. I would recommend that if a "frm:" prefix is there, then do not take it out. If it is not there, then write a creative commons license, instead. Without an explicit license, I think text in a list like this is CC-BY, for instance. In your case in particular, I think you are getting good enough that you might want to put -NC- (non-commercial) on your blog to ensure that people are not permitted to make money from your stuff -- uh...without your permission, which you could charge royalties for (if you did not lose them to your lawyer :-), and ignoring internet service fees. I would like to believe that things are "all rights reserved" on web pages by default, and I read something to the effect of "take it" on one of your blog pages
that
might over-ride that. I am no lawyer (IANL). That makes me happy.
A number ot thoughts. First that pesky frm: convention which has been around about as long as the mailing list. I don't know where it started but I do know where it is useful-very long posts. Suppose you had a long post analyzing a formula. To distinguish the formula being dissected versus the functional formula use the frm: designation. Voila no confusion. For a DRM method it is ridiculously feeble-place the cursor in the right place delete four characters and you've defeated the protection. As for repeating it with every mailing list post Jim Muth and I repeat the URL of websites where we upload the completed images with every post. A little bit about creative rights. I license my stuff under the Creative Commons attribution license-use the images for whatever you want, including derivative works, give me credit as the creator. Go to Flickr and search under people for Max Iter to see my stuff. I do this for two reasons. First I want my visitors to feel welcome. The images? Like 'em keep 'em. Secondly I am a law abiding citizen and the law of the land is Murphy's Law. The following reasoning applies to the world wide web not email or USENET. One core principle of the web is the concept of the link. You put up a page people can link
to it or its elements.
Theoretically, yes. Technically, you are not supposed to put images into your HTML (use someone's background, for example) without permission. Practically, foreign links to my images can also be disabled. In other words, if the HTTP-Referer is not a web page on my site, then my server could say 403 (forbidden). If someone did not ask (and I was looking around for infringement), I could also stop using an image file, myself, and replace it with "so and so is a thief". The message might display as said thief's own background for a few days. If someone was selling penis enlargment with one of my backgrounds, then I might actually do that!
You put something up, by the very nature of html structure you consent to having your information shared with everybody. Maybe. Or maybe I can reserve some rights. Anyway I take the pessimistic approach and accept the possibility everything I post on the web can be shared on the web.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community
Jay Litwyn wrote:
The idea that "frm:" is a DRM *stub* came from Maryetta's answer: a doctor's intention in using it was to deny casual users of FRACTINT access to a formula.
My answer was only a guess at what you were attempting to convey. It is sometimes difficult to understand your emails, since they seem to be a spin off from your web site: "BrewJay's Babble Bin" :-)
"Maryetta Campbell" <Maryetta.C@Earthlink.net> wrote:
Jay Litwyn wrote:
The idea that "frm:" is a DRM *stub* came from Maryetta's answer: a doctor's intention in using it was to deny casual users of FRACTINT access to a formula.
My answer was only a guess at what you were attempting to convey. It is sometimes difficult to understand your emails, since they seem to be a spin off from your web site: "BrewJay's Babble Bin"
:-)
You should hear me ask "Parlez vous anglais?" Hint: Sylvie's eyes would widen up, and her mouth would open at a loss for how to slap me, being Canadian. :-)
david wrote:
Hmmm, as far as I know, Fractint uses frm: to indicate a formula contained as part of a parameter file? Not DRM or anything like that.
Yes. FRACTINT.DOC on page 66 (2.35 Formula): "A formula may also be included in a PAR file by preceeding the formulaname with frm:, for example: frm:Mandelbrot {...}. The PAR file will always be searched first for any required formula." In what way does Fractint *hide* a formula? Loading a .par file with a formula attached, said formula can be inspected via the 'z' screen - not to mention that plain ASCII files are hardly an effective way to enforce any use restrictions. Regards, Gerald
Gerald K. Dobiasovsky" <gerald.dob@aon.at> asked:
In what way does Fractint *hide* a formula?
If you try to use a formula file that contains only one formula, no parameters, and that formula is led by "frm:", then the file will look empty to FRACTINT.
Jay Litwyn wrote:
If you try to use a formula file that contains only one formula, no parameters, and that formula is led by "frm:", then the file will look empty to FRACTINT.
That's because the 'frm:' prefix is only for use in .par files (as are the 'ifs:' and 'lsys:' prefixes). It's in fractint.doc (ok, I know, nobody looks in there). Regards, Gerald
Does anyone know Sylvie Gallet's email address? I tried the one Sylvie.Gallet_1_@LibertySurf.fr on her Fractalus galleries but the message bounced. I ran a google search without success. TIA, Bud
Mark Christenson wrote:
Does anyone know Sylvie Gallet's email address?
The following have been used in the past by Sylvie: sylvie.gallet@free.fr sylvie.gallet1@libertysurf.fr sylvie_gallet@compuserve.com sylviegallet@compuserve.com 101324.3444@compuserve.com (listed from most recent to oldest) see: http://www.Nahee.com/Census/Census_S.html
Does anyone know Sylvie Gallet's email address? I tried the one * **Sylvie.Gallet_1_@LibertySurf.fr* <mailto:Sylvie.Gallet_1_@LibertySurf.fr> on her Fractalus galleries but the message bounced. I ran a google search without success.
I stopped using my libertysurf.fr address: too much spam. As for my website, the fractalus galleries are still there, but they are obsolete. You will find my galleries at: http://sylvie.gallet.free.fr/index.html
"Gerald K. Dobiasovsky" <gerald.dob@aon.at> wrote:
Jay Litwyn wrote:
If you try to use a formula file that contains only one formula, no parameters, and that formula is led by "frm:", then the file will look empty to FRACTINT.
That's because the 'frm:' prefix is only for use in .par files (as are the 'ifs:' and 'lsys:' prefixes). It's in fractint.doc (ok, I know, nobody looks in there).
'drm:' does exactly the same thing as 'frm:', so when FRACTINT searches for formulas with a formula displayer, then it does not find valid names in parameter files or formulas. When it searches a parameter set for a formula, then it ignores a colon, because it found what it was searching for. 'drm:' does exactly the same thing as 'frm:', so I recommend changing documentation to contain a deeper understanding of copyleft. _______ To say nothing nice, say fuk-ol. Nothing is something nice. Silence is golden. Fix the problem, not the blame. --JWL. I hav two unwritten parts for that which make it easier to say without being interrupted.
Jay Litwyn wrote:
'drm:' does exactly the same thing as 'frm:', so when FRACTINT searches for formulas with a formula displayer, then it does not find valid names in parameter files or formulas.
The only formula displayer I am aware of is the screen shown after choosing the formula type in, well, the fractal type screen. It shows only files with .frm extension, unless one intentionally gives file with .par extension as a formula file on the command line (or in sstools.ini). After opening such a file formulas with 'frm:' in front don't show up, those with 'drm:' in front do (with 'drm:' as part of their name).
When it searches a parameter set for a formula, then it ignores a colon, because it found what it was searching for.
If one puts a formula in, say, 'whatever.par' without the 'frm:' label and a 'formulafile=whatever.par' into the parameter set needing that formula, then to Fractint 'whatever.par' will also appear as a formula file. This works, because the entry format for .par and .frm files is an identical: "name + space(s) + {" as long as the found entry really is a formula, not another parameter set. However, with 'drm:' in front of the formula name at least I get error messages about not found items in file, no ignoring of colons there.
'drm:' does exactly the same thing as 'frm:', so I recommend changing documentation to contain a deeper understanding of copyleft.
<sigh> At least said documentation is clear about the fact that the whole 'frm:' ('ifs:', 'lsys:') thing was meant for par set reading only: fractint.doc (page 123): Formulas, ifs, and lsystem entries referred to in a parameter entry can be included in a .par file by adding the prefix frm:, ifs:, or lsys: respectively, for example frm:myformula {rest of that formula}. Note that the prefix is a label, not part of the formula name, so the reference in the image entry would be formulaname=myformula. The formula, ifs, and lsystem entries added to a parfile are accessed only when the image entry in the parfile is run. To make these formulas generally accessible, they must be added to a .frm, .ifs or .l file (without the identifier prefix, of course). fractint.doc (page 211): Formulas, ifs, and lsys entries in a PAR file will not be shown on the menu screen for the PAR file, and are accessible only in connection with running the parameter entry which calls for the formula. Also, PAR files are not searched when looking for a formula, ifs, or lsystem entry in connection with restoring a .gif file. You will need to copy these entries from the PAR file into .frm, .ifs, and .l files as applicable (taking care, of course, to delete the identifier prefixes) in order to make general use of them. Regards, Gerald
"Gerald K. Dobiasovsky" <gerald.dob@aon.at> wrote: (...)
After opening such a file formulas with 'frm:' in front don't show up, those with 'drm:' in front do (with 'drm:' as part of their name). (...)
Why is he trying to tell me this?
Okay..my mistake. In parameter files, drm does not work like frm.
The point of hiding formulas from fractint is not convenience.
participants (8)
-
david -
Gerald K. Dobiasovsky -
Jay Litwyn -
Mark Christenson -
Maryetta Campbell -
Paddy Duncan -
Roger Alexander -
Sylvie Gallet