I have no scientific basis for my thoughts on this matter, however, my opinion is this: Being punched in the eye and seeing color is entirely different than recognizing that the can of Coke on my desk is of a red color. I also disagree with the statement that I recognize that the coke can is a different shade of red than the red barrel of my pen just because someone 'suggested' that it was darker, or by some subliminal implantation of shading when I was younger. If color, at some point is not waveform, then when I make a black mark on my Coke can with a marker is that just imagination that I see? If color is subjective, how do we all know that a stop sign is red? By the shape? If things are that subjective, how would we ever know that our Ziploc's are sealed with the blue-and-yellow-make-green seal? If we thought the bag was sealed, regardless of its state, wouldn't we see it as green? I think that in this case everyone may be right. That some color is waveform, some is imagined, and some are derived from visual trickery like the spinning wheel effect. Regards, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: fractint-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:fractint-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Wilson Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:35 AM To: fractint@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Fractint] FOTD 17-11-02 (The Bluest Atom [5]) For once I have to agree with Jim regarding the subjective experience of color, and cross swords with Morgan's dogmatic statements. Anybody who has ever been at the receiving end of a sharp smack in the eye can testify to the subjectivity of color perception. Then too there is the persistent green retinal image "seen" after staring at a bright red one for a while. Also there are the colors "seen" as the result of the smoking or ingestion of certain vegetable derivatives, which colored a good deal of the 1960's culture! None of these phenomena are due to electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength. I submit that the mind pulls these "colors" out of memory to assign labels to otherwise indescribable sensations. Similar to those odors which "taste" like something one knows. John W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Muth" <jamth@mindspring.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:07 AM Subject: RE: [Fractint] FOTD 17-11-02 (The Bluest Atom [5])

At 08:16 AM 11/20/02 -0600, Mark Freeze wrote:

<snipped>

...

...If color is not determined by wavelength, then how is it determined?...

It is largely determined by the wave length of the light striking the retina of the eye. But the situation is not so simple. The sensation of color can also be produced by a white light that flickers on and off at the proper rate. I have seen strong color by staring at a white sky through the blades of a rotating exhaust fan. And we have all seen those disks with black and white patterns on them that create the impression of color when spun at the proper rate. In these cases, the color most certainly exists only in the mind.

Jim M.

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"Ricardo M. Forno" wrote:

I think the marrow of the subject is: How do I know that the sensation you have while looking at a red-colored thing is the same as mine?

We almost certainly don't (which is the main reason I think the idea of mental telepathy or brain downloads is bunk). We have have is a culturally-attached "tag" on our different sensations that reads: RED. -- |_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________|

Programmer Dude wrote:

"Ricardo M. Forno" wrote:

...

I think the marrow of the subject is: How do I know that the sensation you have while looking at a red-colored thing is the same as mine?

We almost certainly don't (which is the main reason I think the idea of mental telepathy or brain downloads is bunk).

We have have is a culturally-attached "tag" on our different sensations that reads: RED.

Pretty much my picture of things. When two people look at a 23000K blackbody, and they both see it as blue, do they see the same blue or not? Doesn't matter, does it? Since the Universe, the world, and civilisation will tick over quite happily either way. They both see it as blue and that's all they can say to each other about the matter. The only things that can be communicated between people are by definition those things that are communicable. If something is noncommunicable, then it makes no difference if it's different from person to person or the same for all of them - they'll never be brought together for comparison. Unless and until then it's just the Turing Test all over again - except we can't expect any sensible answers to our questions. (That would require communication.) Before you site diagnosis of colour-blindness, may I first point out that colour-blindness can be described in terms of an inability to perceive certain bands of electromagnetic radiation; an objective measure (electromagnetic spectra) is available to provide common grounds over which to communicate: "I see an 8." "I see a 5." "I see diddly." - if those three people aren't looking at the same patterns of light when they said that, you can't determine that they have differing (and decreasing) ability to discern colour. (And I said "patterns of light" not "light patterns". Emphasis on "pattern", since that can be communicated: stored, displayed, transmitted, copied.... No two people can perceive the same photons.) Maybe at some point in the future it will become possible to communicate something that is currently noncommunicable; but only if and when that happens will it become an issue. And only if and when it does will we have the facilities to obtain any sort of sensible answer. Now I think I might be getting a new monitor; I've been complaining for a while that the gamma on this thing is shot (and beyond correction), but it wasn't until I sent some image files that were badly washed out and they complained and I pointed out that they "look fine on MY machine" and showed them that they started to get my point. Or maybe that's wishful thinking. Maybe I'll just get less image work to do. Morgan L. Owens "If I were you, I'd mention how curious it would be to preface some advice with 'If you were me, I'd...' but if you were me, would I suggest that you mention it?"

My father was close to retirement when I happened to show him a magazine article concerned with "color blindness". He just could *not* see any hidden letters in a page of dots...although those letters composed of red dots were very obvious to others, buried as they were in a field of green, blue and yellow. His first reaction was that I was putting him on...then that the magazine was pulling every readers leg! Somehow he was able to get through life without seeing colors as the majority saw them, and without knowing that he was different from that majority. To me that's clear evidence that we, individually, probably don't see colors in the same way...I'd suspect that universal bell-curve applies here too. John W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Freeze" <mfreeze@mailent.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:08 AM Subject: RE: [Fractint] FOTD 17-11-02 (The Bluest Atom [5])

I have no scientific basis for my thoughts on this matter, however, my opinion is this: Being punched in the eye and seeing color is entirely different than recognizing that the can of Coke on my desk is of a red color. I also disagree with the statement that I recognize that the coke can is a different shade of red than the red barrel of my pen just because someone 'suggested' that it was darker, or by some subliminal implantation of shading when I was younger. If color, at some point is not waveform, then when I make a black mark on my Coke can with a marker is that just imagination that I see? If color is subjective, how do we all know that a stop sign is red? By the shape? If things are that subjective, how would we ever know that our Ziploc's are sealed with the blue-and-yellow-make-green seal? If we thought the bag was sealed, regardless of its state, wouldn't we see it as green?

On the other hand, had he been an electronics tech who had to sort resistors by color code or deal with colored wires in low light situations, his difference might have become, not only apparent, but an actual handicap.

Exactly. If color is subjective, how could we all agree on how to sort out a blue wire. Or how could anyone say "Do you mean the light blue wire, or the dark blue wire?" When my mind "see's" the color I have labeled "Blue", it "see's" basically the same as everyone else's mind does for that color. Now your name for the blue color may be "H214x", but our minds still perceive the color as the same regardless of the label, unless you have some damage to your eyes or brain that would cause a color-sensing defect. If I were color blind it would not mean that a stop sign is not red just because I can't see it. Even with the other persons Indian color example, do you really think if a modern person were shown the black-soot and then the black-sky colors they would tell you the colors were identical? I imagine that this person would answer "black" to the question, "What color is this?", but I also believe that if this person viewed them side by side they would probably say that they are both black but maybe the one on the left is darker, and I'm sure that 99% of people polled would say the same. If this isn't color or shade recognition by some type of reflected waveform then what is it? I think we are all saying basically the same thing, but sometimes with this group you have to pull back far enough for everyone to agree on basic, generalized statements.

I don't agree. Assume that since you were a baby, you used filter glasses that inverted colors as in a negative picture. Then, you saw tomatoes, and your mother told you they were red, but you saw them as blue, and so on. As an adult, you will have no difficulty in identifying colors, and then you will know that the red light means "stop", you will call it red, etc., in spite you see it as blue. No one will know you see things differently, not even you. Then, remove the glasses... and you'll see. Problem is, nobody knows how to remove our inborn glasses. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark A. Freeze <mfreeze@mailent.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:05 PM Subject: RE: [Fractint] FOTD 17-11-02 (The Bluest Atom [5])

...

On the other hand, had he been an electronics tech who had to sort resistors by color code or deal with colored wires in low light situations, his difference might have become, not only apparent, but an actual handicap.

Exactly. If color is subjective, how could we all agree on how to sort out a blue wire. Or how could anyone say "Do you mean the light blue wire, or the dark blue wire?" When my mind "see's" the color I have labeled "Blue", it "see's" basically the same as everyone else's mind does for that color. Now your name for the blue color may be "H214x", but our minds still perceive the color as the same regardless of the label, unless you have some damage to your eyes or brain that would cause a color-sensing defect. If I were color blind it would not mean that a stop sign is not red just because I can't see it. Even with the other persons Indian color example, do you really think if a modern person were shown the black-soot and then the black-sky colors they would tell you the colors were identical? I imagine that this person would answer "black" to the question, "What color is this?", but I also believe that if this person viewed them side by side they would probably say that they are both black but maybe the one on the left is darker, and I'm sure that 99% of people polled would say the same. If this isn't color or shade recognition by some type of reflected waveform then what is it?

I think we are all saying basically the same thing, but sometimes with this group you have to pull back far enough for everyone to agree on basic, generalized statements.

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Hey, this is fun! It seems to me that culture has a great impact on color perception. Ancient Navaho had a color perception that differs from those in the modern world - their rainbow had only five colors, where we all 'know' that there are seven. They had several different colors for what we would today look at and call black, i.e., the black of soot and the black of the night sky were different colors, as different as blue and yellow are to us. Or, should I say, "To me". I don't want to speak for anybody else here ;-) Oliver Sacks had another book of interest on this subject, "The Island of the Color Blind" is the title, as I recall. And in "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat" I believe that he writes of an artist who loses his color vision due to a central nervous system trauma. Evidently he not only lost the ability to see in color, but lost the concept of color itself. Unlike a man who might lose his hearing, but remember the sounds of things heard in the past, this poor soul (who's livelihood depended on his art) forgot what colors looked like. Marty K. On Wednesday, November 20, 2002, at 11:08 AM, Mark A. Freeze wrote:

I have no scientific basis for my thoughts on this matter, however, my opinion is this: Being punched in the eye and seeing color is entirely different than recognizing that the can of Coke on my desk is of a red color. I also disagree with the statement that I recognize that the coke can is a different shade of red than the red barrel of my pen just because someone 'suggested' that it was darker, or by some subliminal implantation of shading when I was younger. If color, at some point is not waveform, then when I make a black mark on my Coke can with a marker is that just imagination that I see? If color is subjective, how do we all know that a stop sign is red? By the shape? If things are that subjective, how would we ever know that our Ziploc's are sealed with the blue-and-yellow-make-green seal? If we thought the bag was sealed, regardless of its state, wouldn't we see it as green?

I think that in this case everyone may be right. That some color is waveform, some is imagined, and some are derived from visual trickery like the spinning wheel effect.

Regards, Mark.

-----Original Message----- From: fractint-admin@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:fractint-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Wilson Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:35 AM To: fractint@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Fractint] FOTD 17-11-02 (The Bluest Atom [5])

For once I have to agree with Jim regarding the subjective experience of color, and cross swords with Morgan's dogmatic statements. Anybody who has ever been at the receiving end of a sharp smack in the eye can testify to the subjectivity of color perception. Then too there is the persistent green retinal image "seen" after staring at a bright red one for a while. Also there are the colors "seen" as the result of the smoking or ingestion of certain vegetable derivatives, which colored a good deal of the 1960's culture! None of these phenomena are due to electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength. I submit that the mind pulls these "colors" out of memory to assign labels to otherwise indescribable sensations. Similar to those odors which "taste" like something one knows.

John W.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Muth" <jamth@mindspring.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:07 AM Subject: RE: [Fractint] FOTD 17-11-02 (The Bluest Atom [5])

...

At 08:16 AM 11/20/02 -0600, Mark Freeze wrote:

<snipped>

...

...If color is not determined by wavelength, then how is it determined?...

It is largely determined by the wave length of the light striking the retina of the eye. But the situation is not so simple. The sensation of color can also be produced by a white light that flickers on and off at the proper rate. I have seen strong color by staring at a white sky through the blades of a rotating exhaust fan. And we have all seen those disks with black and white patterns on them that create the impression of color when spun at the proper rate. In these cases, the color most certainly exists only in the mind.

Jim M.

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On 20 Nov 02, at 21:18, Martin Krikorian wrote:

Oliver Sacks had another book of interest on this subject, "The Island of the Color Blind" is the title, as I recall. And in "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat" I believe that he writes of an artist who loses his color vision due to a central nervous system trauma. Evidently he not only lost the ability to see in color, but lost the concept of color itself. Unlike a man who might lose his hearing, but remember the sounds of things heard in the past, this poor soul (who's livelihood depended on his art) forgot what colors looked like.

The artist mentioned in "The Case of the Colorblind Painter" didn't lose the concept of color - he knew and remembered very bitterly what he *wasn't* seeing anymore. Several years later, he was starting to resume using color in his paintings, but only a single color (added to an otherwise B&W painting) and he *still* couldn't see any colors. David gnome@hawaii.rr.com