FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
FOTD -- November 05, 2002 (Rating 5) Fractal visionaries and enthusiasts: True, it's a few days past Halloween, but today's image has something creepy about it. With its somber dark blue color palette and its eight objects that could be taken as leeches, it might serve as an adequate cover for a paperback horror novel with a title such as "The Leeches that Sucked the World Dry". (Yes, I could be thinking of certain local politicians running for office. It's election day here in Fractal Central country.) Not wanting to name the image after something as unappealing as a dish of leeches, I gave it the more childish name "Creepy- Crawlies". The parent fractal is a grossly bloated Mandeloid rotated 180 degrees and on the verge of turning inside-out. The main period-2 bud, which is on the east side of the large bay has been totally obliterated by the ballooning bay itself. The bay has expanded so far that instead of the period-2 bud being the most prominent, buds with a periodicity around 30 or 40 are most prominent. Today's scene lies in the northern chaos that has accumulated as the whole fractal has expanded. I am sometimes asked how I find these midgets in unfamiliar areas of unfamiliar fractals. I'm not entirely sure how I do it. My attention is often attracted by elements that appear to have two-way symmetry. Then I simply get a feeling that a midget lies deep down at that spot, and when I go look, I am right as often as wrong. The route I took to today's midget can be retraced in reverse by turning off the logmap and outzooming. The trip back out will go faster if the passes is reset to <g> and thumbnail-sized images are calculated. Today's image, which was calculated in the basic default manner, with equal iteration bands on the outside and blank black on the inside, rates a 5. This is an average rating; the image is an average fractal. The 11-minute render time from the parameter file is somewhat excessive, but relief is always at hand at Paul's web site: <http://home.att.net/~Paul.N.Lee/FotD/FotD.html> or at Scott's site: <http://sdboyd.dyndns.org/~sdboyd/fotd/index.html> where the finished GIF image will soon be posted. The weather on Monday was uneventful here at Fractal Central. The partly cloudy skies, light winds, and temperature of 54F 12C made for a pleasant enough afternoon as the dynamic ones checked and explored the yard, finding nothing out of the ordinary in the process. It's now Tuesday morning and sun is once again illuminating the area. I've got a bit of work to accomplish before I can call it a day, so until tomorrow and the next FOTD, take care, and has anyone considered a fractal chess set? Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com jimmuth@aol.com START 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE================================ Creepy-Crawlies { ; time=0:11:21.35--SF5 on a p200 reset=2002 type=formula formulafile=allinone.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1 center-mag=-92.74890492054568000/+85.5641322949149\ 1000/1519072/1/-70/1.46619012066709353e-005 params=0.6/-1.8/0.6/1.8/0/0 float=y maxiter=1200 inside=0 logmap=198 periodicity=40 colors=000GQIHRHISHJTGKUFLVFMWENXEOYDPYDQYCMYCKYBH\ YBEYDFYEHYFJYGLYHNYIPXJRWKTVLVVMXUNZTOYSPXROVQNTPM\ ROLONKMMKJLJHKIEJHCIGAHGBGICFJCELDGMDINEKPFMQFORGQ\ TGSUHUVIWXIYYJ__Ja`KcaLecLgdMieMkgNmhNniPmjQkkSikT\ glVemWcmXanZ_o_YoaWpbUqdSqeQrfOshMsiKtkIulGunEvoCw\ pAwlEviHveKvbNv_QvWTuTWuPZuMauJduKbsLaqL`oM_mNZlNY\ jOXhOWfPVeQUcQSaRR_SQZSPXTOVTNTUMSVLQVKOWJMWILZGJa\ EHdDFfBDi9Bl89o67q55n68l6Ai6Cg7Ed7Gb7I`7LY8NW8PT8R\ R8TO9VM9YK9_H9aFAcCAeAAg8Ai99g99f99eA9dA9cA8bB8aB8\ `B8_C8ZC8YC7XD7WD7VD7UE7TE6SE6RF6QF6PF6OF6NE7ME8LD\ 9KDAKCBJCCIBDHBDHBEGAFFAGE9HE9ID8JC8KB8KB7LA7M96N8\ 6O85P75Q65Q69S9CTBFUEIVGLXJOYLSZOV_QYaT`bVccYfd_ie\ akaclZemWfnThoQipNkqKmrHnsEptBqu8sv5to8mhBfaE`VHUO\ KNHNHAQA3S45T66U87UA9VCAWEBWGDXIEZKF`MHaOIcQJeSKgU\ MiWNkYOm_QoaRqcSseUugVwiWxkXylZzj`zhbzfdzefzchzajz\ _kzZmzXozVqzTszS7zJ7zJ7zI } frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END 20.0 PAR-FORMULA FILE==================================
Jim Muth wrote:
It's now Tuesday morning and sun is once again illuminating the area. I've got a bit of work to accomplish before I can call it a day, so until tomorrow and the next FOTD, take care, and has anyone considered a fractal chess set?
Dunno 'bout a fractal chess _set_, but suitable Julibrot slices might look good... Clifford Pickover and I both independently thought of recursive chess, in which each square of the board is itself a board. Moves on the top level board are contingent on activities on boards at deeper levels, pieces could "push" themselves down on to deeper boards, or "pop" themselves up, etc. etc. One could play an entire game on the square occupied by the piece that is to move, to decide whether or not the move is to actually go ahead. And of course, the moves of that game would be influenced by games played on it's squares... Morgan L. Owens "Before you ask - no, I've never played this."
Now "recursive chess" sounds like fun! Who's got the programming smarts to make it work? David gnome@hawaii.rr.com On 6 Nov 02, at 15:20, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
Jim Muth wrote:
It's now Tuesday morning and sun is once again illuminating the area. I've got a bit of work to accomplish before I can call it a day, so until tomorrow and the next FOTD, take care, and has anyone considered a fractal chess set?
Dunno 'bout a fractal chess _set_, but suitable Julibrot slices might look good...
Clifford Pickover and I both independently thought of recursive chess, in which each square of the board is itself a board. Moves on the top level board are contingent on activities on boards at deeper levels, pieces could "push" themselves down on to deeper boards, or "pop" themselves up, etc. etc.
One could play an entire game on the square occupied by the piece that is to move, to decide whether or not the move is to actually go ahead. And of course, the moves of that game would be influenced by games played on it's squares...
Morgan L. Owens "Before you ask - no, I've never played this."
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David Jones wrote:
Now "recursive chess" sounds like fun! Who's got the programming smarts to make it work?
It probably wouldn't be that hard, since the program itself need only be a chess program itself capable of recursion. The problem--as always with recursion--is when do you stop? ;-\ -- |_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________|
On 6 Nov 02, at 11:32, Programmer Dude wrote:
David Jones wrote:
Now "recursive chess" sounds like fun! Who's got the programming smarts to make it work?
It probably wouldn't be that hard, since the program itself need only be a chess program itself capable of recursion.
The problem--as always with recursion--is when do you stop? ;-\
You sure got that right! I've played against a number of chess programs over the years, and they can take a long time to move. Could you imagine that happening for every single square on the board? Oh, one difference between chess and a board war game. No amount of tactical level combat would change an infantry unit into an armored unit. It sounded like this recursive chess idea could lead to changing the nature of the unit there ... Probably have to come up with higher levels of abstraction to actually make this translate into something even vaguely real. Several years ago, I got the idea of fractal music in which each note was produced by a fractal. For example, if you "zoomed" in on a middle C quarter note, it actually turned into a cluster of shorter duration notes that might or might not be centered on middle C. I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear? Anyway, fun stuff! David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration. David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
David Jones wrote:
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
So was I; a handclap is too brief for a meaningful frequency to be assigned to it. Morgan L. Owens "Of course, if it delivered enough energy even a very brief sound would be heard. Until your eardrums burst."
On 9 Nov 02, at 23:45, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
So was I; a handclap is too brief for a meaningful frequency to be assigned to it.
But if you recorded it, played it back at a slower speed, I bet you could come up with a frequency spectrum. I suspect handclap has a more complex frequency structure than you would think, since you can hear differences between different people's claps, and there are tonal differences between handclaps ... David who is no audio engineer! gnome@hawaii.rr.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Jones" <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 3:10 AM Subject: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
On 9 Nov 02, at 23:45, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
So was I; a handclap is too brief for a meaningful frequency to be assigned to it.
But if you recorded it, played it back at a slower speed, I bet you could come up with a frequency spectrum. I suspect handclap has a more complex frequency structure than you would think, since you can hear differences between different people's claps, and there are tonal differences between handclaps ...
David who is no audio engineer!
You're correct. This sort of impulse sound is usually a double exponential pressure wave..a fast rise and a slow decay, which can be Fourier-transformed into spectra. A discrete tone has to be at least one cycle in duration to be heard, so the shortest sound will depend upon its frequency, and will require several cycles for recognition, depending upon the individual ear. In my part of the world it's become customary among the local school-pests to drive a car containing a half-megawatt stereo system, which seem to be playing a series of impulses with a fundemental frequency of 30 Hz! Incredible. The next generation is going to be the "Deaf Generation". John W.
On 9 Nov 02, at 9:22, John Wilson wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Jones" <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 3:10 AM Subject: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
On 9 Nov 02, at 23:45, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
So was I; a handclap is too brief for a meaningful frequency to be assigned to it.
But if you recorded it, played it back at a slower speed, I bet you could come up with a frequency spectrum. I suspect handclap has a more complex frequency structure than you would think, since you can hear differences between different people's claps, and there are tonal differences between handclaps ...
David who is no audio engineer!
You're correct. This sort of impulse sound is usually a double exponential pressure wave..a fast rise and a slow decay, which can be Fourier-transformed into spectra. A discrete tone has to be at least one cycle in duration to be heard, so the shortest sound will depend upon its frequency, and will require several cycles for recognition, depending upon the individual ear. In my part of the world it's become customary among the local school-pests to drive a car containing a half-megawatt stereo system, which seem to be playing a series of impulses with a fundemental frequency of 30 Hz! Incredible. The next generation is going to be the "Deaf Generation".
Already are, at least around here. But then, when I was in high school back in the early 70's, I had a friend who built big home-stereo speakers into his MG, one right behind each seat, and pumped about 200 watts of power through each one. I theink the "Deaf Generation" spans a much wider age range than we sometimes think! David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
David Jones wrote:
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
So was I; a handclap is too brief for a meaningful frequency to be assigned to it.
But if you recorded it, played it back at a slower speed, I bet you could come up with a frequency spectrum.
Most short, sharp noises have a basic form, called a Ring Wave. The red line on this image is a ring wave: http://www.nepsi.com/images/transientsfig3.gif Transients tend to have a basic frequency (the main frequency of the ring wave), but a LOT of harmonics. Not really what you'd call a "musical note", but that depends on how you define a musical note. Kinda the tree/forest thing. Is a cymbal crash a musical note? -- |_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________|
Hi Fractinters, one of these days I found some 'ChromaDepth 3-D' glasses in a shop. They bring a fantastic 3D effect into fractals using e.g. chroma.map! An absolute must for 3D- and FractInt freaks! The URL to get such glasses is: http://www.chromatek.com/index.shtml Actually I'm trying other maps on different fractal types.. super.. viva FractInt! Cheers, Guy
That's true, but also a handclap has many frequencies and transients, and even if it were longer, a specific frequency would be difficult to assign to it. Take a wood pencil in a hand, and strike it near the middle against an angle of your desk. It produces a very brief sound, but it is still recognizable as having some more or less definite pitch, to the point that, varying the point of impact, you can play "music" with it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Morgan L. Owens <packrat@nznet.gen.nz> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 7:45 AM Subject: Re: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
David Jones wrote:
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
So was I; a handclap is too brief for a meaningful frequency to be assigned to it.
Morgan L. Owens "Of course, if it delivered enough energy even a very brief sound would be heard. Until your eardrums burst."
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True, that's why I figured that a handclap didn't simply qualify as a wave form with a single crest. David gnome@hawaii.rr.com On 10 Nov 02, at 2:30, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
That's true, but also a handclap has many frequencies and transients, and even if it were longer, a specific frequency would be difficult to assign to it. Take a wood pencil in a hand, and strike it near the middle against an angle of your desk. It produces a very brief sound, but it is still recognizable as having some more or less definite pitch, to the point that, varying the point of impact, you can play "music" with it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Morgan L. Owens <packrat@nznet.gen.nz> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 7:45 AM Subject: Re: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
David Jones wrote:
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
So was I; a handclap is too brief for a meaningful frequency to be assigned to it.
Morgan L. Owens "Of course, if it delivered enough energy even a very brief sound would be heard. Until your eardrums burst."
It is estimated that notes played by an instrument cease to be recognizable below 1/10th of a second in duration. Anyhow they can be heard, but their pitches become difficult to discern. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
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Hmmm, so that sets a bottom size for the iterations. David gnome@hawaii.rr.com On 10 Nov 02, at 2:23, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
It is estimated that notes played by an instrument cease to be recognizable below 1/10th of a second in duration. Anyhow they can be heard, but their pitches become difficult to discern.
----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
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Which iterations?? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:33 AM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
Hmmm, so that sets a bottom size for the iterations.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 2:23, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
It is estimated that notes played by an instrument cease to be recognizable below 1/10th of a second in duration. Anyhow they can be heard, but their pitches become difficult to discern.
----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
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I'm sorry, not iterations, zooming. I'm envisioning a fractal music with zoom levels. You zoom in on a single note, and it is actually a fractal cluster of notes around the higher level note's pitch, and which would sound within the amount of time of the higher note. You can zoom in on individual notes of a cluster, too. The practical limit then becomes how short the note can be and still be heard. As far as what order the notes of a cluster might be played, not sure. Maybe start with pitch nearest the higher-level note and go out from there? David gnome@hawaii.rr.com On 10 Nov 02, at 15:02, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
Which iterations?? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:33 AM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
Hmmm, so that sets a bottom size for the iterations.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 2:23, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
It is estimated that notes played by an instrument cease to be recognizable below 1/10th of a second in duration. Anyhow they can be heard, but their pitches become difficult to discern.
----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I wonder if there is such a thing as a musical note too short to be heard by the human ear?
What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
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David Jones wrote:
I'm sorry, not iterations, zooming. I'm envisioning a fractal music with zoom levels. You zoom in on a single note, and it is actually a fractal cluster of notes around the higher level note's pitch, and which would sound within the amount of time of the higher note. You can zoom in on individual notes of a cluster, too. The practical limit then becomes how short the note can be and still be heard.
So in other words, a fractal waveform. These have been constructed (and played), and while the ones to date haven't have much musical merit, they do have some interesting properties. Eg., it might sound exactly the same played at half speed as at full speed. The simplest of those would probably just be a superposition of continuous tones at, say, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000, 16000, ... Hz - up to the limit of your reproduction apparatus. Morgan L. Owens "Besicovich-Ursell! Weierstrass! Hofstadter!"
On 11 Nov 02, at 14:34, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote:
I'm sorry, not iterations, zooming. I'm envisioning a fractal music with zoom levels. You zoom in on a single note, and it is actually a fractal cluster of notes around the higher level note's pitch, and which would sound within the amount of time of the higher note. You can zoom in on individual notes of a cluster, too. The practical limit then becomes how short the note can be and still be heard.
So in other words, a fractal waveform. These have been constructed (and played), and while the ones to date haven't have much musical merit, they do have some interesting properties. Eg., it might sound exactly the same played at half speed as at full speed. The simplest of those would probably just be a superposition of continuous tones at, say, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000, 16000, ... Hz - up to the limit of your reproduction apparatus.
Ah, so it's been done that way. Hmmm, will have to think on this some more. David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
Perhaps you should contact CSOUND users. There is a technique called "granularity" that generates weird sounds by clustering minute pieces of elementary sound. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:05 PM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
I'm sorry, not iterations, zooming. I'm envisioning a fractal music with zoom levels. You zoom in on a single note, and it is actually a fractal cluster of notes around the higher level note's pitch, and which would sound within the amount of time of the higher note. You can zoom in on individual notes of a cluster, too. The practical limit then becomes how short the note can be and still be heard.
As far as what order the notes of a cluster might be played, not sure. Maybe start with pitch nearest the higher-level note and go out from there?
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 15:02, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
Which iterations?? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:33 AM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
Hmmm, so that sets a bottom size for the iterations.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 2:23, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
It is estimated that notes played by an instrument cease to be recognizable below 1/10th of a second in duration. Anyhow they can be heard, but their pitches become difficult to discern.
----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
David Jones wrote: > I > wonder if there is such a thing as a musical > note too short to be heard by the human ear? > What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
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What is CSOUND? David gnome@hawaii.rr.com On 10 Nov 02, at 23:34, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
Perhaps you should contact CSOUND users. There is a technique called "granularity" that generates weird sounds by clustering minute pieces of elementary sound.
----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:05 PM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
I'm sorry, not iterations, zooming. I'm envisioning a fractal music with zoom levels. You zoom in on a single note, and it is actually a fractal cluster of notes around the higher level note's pitch, and which would sound within the amount of time of the higher note. You can zoom in on individual notes of a cluster, too. The practical limit then becomes how short the note can be and still be heard.
As far as what order the notes of a cluster might be played, not sure. Maybe start with pitch nearest the higher-level note and go out from there?
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 15:02, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
Which iterations?? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:33 AM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
Hmmm, so that sets a bottom size for the iterations.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 2:23, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
It is estimated that notes played by an instrument cease to be recognizable below 1/10th of a second in duration. Anyhow they can be heard, but their pitches become difficult to discern.
----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote:
> David Jones wrote: > > I > > wonder if there is such a thing as a musical > > note too short to be heard by the human ear? > > > What is the frequency of a handclap?
I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of duration.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
"David" == David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> writes:
David> What is CSOUND? David gnome@hawaii.rr.com Whoops, let's try this again. Csound is an extremely powerful software sound synthesizer, with a huge raft of modules for different synth algorithms. Think of it more as an audio compiler, and you will get the idea. Here is more info: http://www.csounds.com/ http://www.csound.org http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/90/csound.html (some examples of Csound use) The granular opcodes can do such things as play a brief impulse at varying rates, which makes a great air-raid siren, or play numerous small pieces of a sample. The latter doesn't have to be sequential either, it could select the location within the sample any number of ways, forwards, backwards, random etc. The orchestra instruments are essentially programs, and the score is just a text file, so any number of front-end programs can be used to generate those; if you want to create a dragon curve of notes from within Perl, or some fancy GUI front-end, the core engine is the same. Cheers, Tim
THANKS! That sounds like a lot of fun! David 8-) gnome@hawaii.rr.com On 11 Nov 02, at 9:51, Tim Lavoie wrote:
"David" == David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> writes:
David> What is CSOUND? David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
Whoops, let's try this again.
Csound is an extremely powerful software sound synthesizer, with a huge raft of modules for different synth algorithms. Think of it more as an audio compiler, and you will get the idea. Here is more info:
http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/90/csound.html (some examples of Csound use)
The granular opcodes can do such things as play a brief impulse at varying rates, which makes a great air-raid siren, or play numerous small pieces of a sample. The latter doesn't have to be sequential either, it could select the location within the sample any number of ways, forwards, backwards, random etc.
The orchestra instruments are essentially programs, and the score is just a text file, so any number of front-end programs can be used to generate those; if you want to create a dragon curve of notes from within Perl, or some fancy GUI front-end, the core engine is the same.
Cheers, Tim
CSOUND is a free, open source (I think) system written in C that is used by avant-garde musicians to write electro-acoustic works. Its mailing list moves 50-100 messages a day. It is easy to find it in the Net. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:26 AM Subject: RE: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
What is CSOUND?
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 23:34, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
Perhaps you should contact CSOUND users. There is a technique called "granularity" that generates weird sounds by clustering minute pieces of elementary sound.
----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:05 PM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
I'm sorry, not iterations, zooming. I'm envisioning a fractal music with zoom levels. You zoom in on a single note, and it is actually a fractal cluster of notes around the higher level note's pitch, and which would sound within the amount of time of the higher note. You can zoom in on individual notes of a cluster, too. The practical limit then becomes how short the note can be and still be heard.
As far as what order the notes of a cluster might be played, not sure. Maybe start with pitch nearest the higher-level note and go out from there?
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 15:02, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
Which iterations?? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:33 AM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
Hmmm, so that sets a bottom size for the iterations.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 2:23, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
It is estimated that notes played by an instrument cease to be recognizable below 1/10th of a second in duration. Anyhow they can be heard, but their pitches become difficult to discern.
----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
> On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens wrote: > > > David Jones wrote: > > > I > > > wonder if there is such a thing as a musical > > > note too short to be heard by the human ear? > > > > > What is the frequency of a handclap? > > I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, more of > duration. > > David > gnome@hawaii.rr.com
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Thanks, sounds like it might be interesting to look into. David gnome@hawaii.rr.com On 11 Nov 02, at 23:13, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
CSOUND is a free, open source (I think) system written in C that is used by avant-garde musicians to write electro-acoustic works. Its mailing list moves 50-100 messages a day. It is easy to find it in the Net. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:26 AM Subject: RE: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
What is CSOUND?
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 23:34, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
Perhaps you should contact CSOUND users. There is a technique called "granularity" that generates weird sounds by clustering minute pieces of elementary sound.
----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:05 PM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
I'm sorry, not iterations, zooming. I'm envisioning a fractal music with zoom levels. You zoom in on a single note, and it is actually a fractal cluster of notes around the higher level note's pitch, and which would sound within the amount of time of the higher note. You can zoom in on individual notes of a cluster, too. The practical limit then becomes how short the note can be and still be heard.
As far as what order the notes of a cluster might be played, not sure. Maybe start with pitch nearest the higher-level note and go out from there?
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 15:02, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
Which iterations?? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 3:33 AM Subject: [Fractint] RE: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies [5])
Hmmm, so that sets a bottom size for the iterations.
David gnome@hawaii.rr.com
On 10 Nov 02, at 2:23, Ricardo M. Forno wrote:
> It is estimated that notes played by an > instrument cease to be recognizable below > 1/10th of a second in duration. Anyhow they > can be heard, but their pitches become > difficult to discern.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: > David Jones <gnome@hawaii.rr.com> To: > <fractint@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: > Saturday, November 09, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: > [Fractint] Re: FOTD 05-11-02 (Creepy-Crawlies > [5]) > > > > On 7 Nov 02, at 23:37, Morgan L. Owens > > wrote: > > > > > David Jones wrote: > > > > I > > > > wonder if there is such a thing as a > > > > musical note too short to be heard by > > > > the human ear? > > > > > > > What is the frequency of a handclap? > > > > I wasn't thinking in terms of frequency, > > more of duration. > > > > David > > gnome@hawaii.rr.com
Morgan,
Jim Muth wrote:
It's now Tuesday morning and sun is once again illuminating the area. I've got a bit of work to accomplish before I can call it a day, so until tomorrow and the next FOTD, take care, and has anyone considered a fractal chess set?
Dunno 'bout a fractal chess _set_, but suitable Julibrot slices might look good...
Clifford Pickover and I both independently thought of recursive chess, in which each square of the board is itself a board. Moves on the top level board are contingent on activities on boards at deeper levels, pieces could "push" themselves down on to deeper boards, or "pop" themselves up, etc. etc.
One could play an entire game on the square occupied by the piece that is to move, to decide whether or not the move is to actually go ahead. And of course, the moves of that game would be influenced by games played on it's squares...
This isn't so different from wargames, where action at the upper levels is contingent on interactions between subunits not shown expressly to the folk playing at the top level. Basically, war is a recursive wargame. Commercial wargames, particularly board wargames (more so than computer wargames) almost invariably represent explicitly several levels of interaction, rather than the single level of interaction that chess has. Mike
Mike Traynor wrote:
Commercial wargames, particularly board wargames (more so than computer wargames) almost invariably represent explicitly several levels of interaction, rather than the single level of interaction that chess has.
That's not at all surprising; I had in mind a hierarchy of strategy, tactics, manoeuvres .... the chain of command: you give your troops their orders, and you expect them to carry out their orders without constantly running to you with questions about how. In return they expect you give them sensible orders. In these commercial games, is there any correspondence with pushing and popping - where a move consists of pushing a piece down to a square on a lower board, or popping it up to the one higher? And how many levels do they generally go - do all the levels play the same? Morgan L. Owens "Then of course you have to play a game to find out if a piece is a bishop or a rook ... a knight if it's a draw."
participants (9)
-
David Jones -
Guy Marson -
Jim Muth -
John Wilson -
Mike Traynor -
Morgan L. Owens -
Programmer Dude -
Ricardo M. Forno -
Tim Lavoie