Hi Wynn,
I read your article last night?( along with several others, GREAT issue ). Very well done ( I'd say great but I already said that about the issue ). All these idea's seem to come around every now and then. Some get improved on and some don't. There was someone in the Yakima area that was certified to do the Strasser trim for awhile then they were going. I think the Ramey trim will be around awhile though just from all the feed back I get. I looked it over and put things in my "mental tool box " you never know when you might need it. I agree with what you said about trim the Ramey way even for shoeing. I've been doing that before Ramey came on the scene due to the rocky/lava terrain here in Yakima County. More sole doesn't hurt. I went to an Ovnicek clinic back the early 90's and he was talking more sole density/ sole depth then. A lot of this stuff just gets repackaged. But, as has already been said, If it works do it. Some think I'm worry about loosing dollars but if you follow the Ramey trim you're actually trimming every 4 or 5 weeks. I'm I right on that?? Heck no shoes no forge,propane,nails......maybe I'll give this trim a go. I'm 55 years young and easy is fine by me.
I just always get leery of new things that come along and start asking questions. The?question being. why did so many?early civilizations start putting horse sandals on, then later about 2000 years ago the Chinese started using actual horseshoes that they nailed on.This info I got out of my "The Principles of Horseshoeing " by Dr. Doug Butler. In chapter 3 of that book Dr. Butler has much more on the history of shoeing.?
That's the question that really stumps me though. Wrought Iron wasn't just bought from the corner store, was needed for weapons to protect the?Kings villages and all. why not just leave them barefoot??? The feeds of the day were totally natural. No additives. No sugars.??
I looked back thru my copy of Supply & Demand buy Oliver and Doc and it'll show horseshoes but how many??? Then it'll have 20 pair or 11 pair. I wonder if the mountaineers could have removed the shoes when not needed as you suggest some of your friend do???? Remove the shoes for winter and so on. I did notice on one list from S&D that they brought out 20 pair of shoes and 8 pounds of nails. A lot?of nails left over there. A lot of re-sets??? How about getting extra shoes BEFORE leaving the?settlements??? Of course this is just supposition?but............anyway. Very good article, Wynn and thought provoking. Thanks for replying to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wynn <wheels@???>
To: mdrougas@???; wheels@???; blackhorse53@???; neotoma_mexicana@???
Cc: hist_text@???
Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 8:41 am
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Longrifle
Wynn's Comments (WC)
I am tickled to be able to talk about this. This may come out like a barefoot vs shoes and argumentative but that is to make?points.
Hi All,
? The German Vet you're talking about is a woman, Dr.
Strasser. She was certifing shoers to her trim. There are
several other people who have there own take on the
barefoot trim as well going back to Jamie Jackson back in
the 80's.
WC
Don't think that my article will change your mind about shoeing. It isn't meant to be that persausive but more of an introduction to the idea. You probably know more about it than the article presents.
I've been shoeing full time for 24 years
now and I've seen this come around. I just got my T&LR
today and saw Wynn's article, but haven't read it yet. I'd
have to say if it works do it. However........Wynn, would
you say that the Mountaineers had enough horses that if
one was a little sore footed that they'd ride another for
awhile???
WC
I think that horses were almost always in short supply for the mountaineers and for the most part the Indians. Sure they dropped off lame horses when the need arose and lost some to just wondering off and even ate some, they were not made of gold but horses were rarely considered abundant. Refer to Lewis and Clark who had trouble trading with Indains with thousands of horses but no extras. Each family had so many horses and each had a specific job and some were lent to friends who needed another. Do you stop the whole tribe if a horse pulls up lame? No you dump it and move on and it might even catch up since it misses its friends.
?
The absents of "store bought shoes" from the
states doesn't necessarily mean that barefooting was a
preferred means, just that the expense and weight was
maybe more of an issue.
WC
Agreed. They might have had shod horses if they had a choice. If that reduced the chances of having to stop and repack a horse when on a trek to rondy or on the way back from lifting a cache they would have done it, given the chance. Even some of my barefoot friends will put shoes on when they head out for a month long ride.
On the other hand I took my ponies up to a camp in Idaho a few weeks back and we switched riders so everyone could go out and enjoy some time a horseback. A couple of the hoodlum younsters (that would be my boys) even like to run them. The horses were just fine after a weekend of rocky trails and they havn't seen a lot of miles this winter. A bare hoof is pretty effective once its setup right.
One of my hunting friends had to cut the miles on his horses on a hunting trip. We assumed the lack of shoes. He chuckled at us and explained that the horses had been beat up but their feet were fine. He claimed that once he had tried barefoot he realized that some of the behaviors he saw in shod horses were caused by being sore footed and he just had not realized it. We are talking about things like refusing to walk in the trail and wanting to brush riders off on the trees.
?
Please don't get me wrong here, it's
just that the barefoot is not for every horse and as Wynn
said in his article, the different feed, the confinement of a few acres
plus the fact that Indians and Mountaineers had more
horses to chose from for riding suggest that you should
really check to see that this for your horse.
WC
I will go the opposite way. The lessons that the barefoot guys are showing about proper feed and exercise should be the standard for ALL horses. Getting the frog down close to the ground and never cutting into the live sole should be on ALL horses. Even if you don't go 100% barefoot on your horses, you should learn from what these guys are teaching. A lot of it is only indirectly related to the barefoot stuff. It is instead the research of Universities around the world who are studying horses. I am starting to see things like reduced sugar and carb diets, and constantly available feed?being written about outside barefoot circles. Maybe instead of asking if barefoot is right, you should be encouraging the horse people to start changing the way they throw that high cal suppliment and stall their horses 24 hours a day.
?
Ramey talks
about a "transition period" and boots or maybe green
buffalo hide.
WC
Yes that is a part of the reasoning for the article. I will carry hoofboots on rides and use them if I need to. Same way with bug repellant.?
?
I can't wait to start reading this T&LR
and hats off to a great mag. I've been getting it since
1996 and really enjoy reading them over and over. (Sorry
this was so long) Mike Drougas
I've been shoeing full time for 24 years
now and I've seen this come around. I just got my T&LR
today and saw Wynn's article, but haven't read it yet. I'd
have to say if it works do it. However........Wynn, would
you say that the Mountaineers had enough horses that if
one was a little sore footed that they'd ride another for
awhile???
WC
I think that horses were almost always in short supply for the mountaineers and for the most part the Indians. Sure they dropped off lame horses when the need arose and lost some to just wondering off and even ate some, they were not made of gold but horses were rarely considered abundant. Refer to Lewis and Clark who had trouble trading with Indains with thousands of horses but no extras. Each family had so many horses and each had a specific job and some were lent to friends who needed another. Do you stop the whole tribe if a horse pulls up lame? No you dump it and move on and it might even catch up since it misses its friends.
?
The absents of "store bought shoes" from the
states doesn't necessarily mean that barefooting was a
preferred means, just that the expense and weight was
maybe more of an issue.
WC
Agreed. They might have had shod horses if they had a choice. If that reduced the chances of having to stop and repack a horse when on a trek to rondy or on the way back from lifting a cache they would have done it, given the chance. Even some of my barefoot friends will put shoes on when they head out for a month long ride.
On the other hand I took my ponies up to a camp in Idaho a few weeks back and we switched riders so everyone could go out and enjoy some time a horseback. A couple of the hoodlum younsters (that would be my boys) even like to run them. The horses were just fine after a weekend of rocky trails and they havn't seen a lot of miles this winter. A bare hoof is pretty effective once its setup right.
One of my hunting friends had to cut the miles on his horses on a hunting trip. We assumed the lack of shoes. He chuckled at us and explained that the horses had been beat up but their feet were fine. He claimed that once he had tried barefoot he realized that some of the behaviors he saw in shod horses were caused by being sore footed and he just had not realized it. We are talking about things like refusing to walk in the trail and wanting to brush riders off on the trees.
?
Please don't get me wrong here, it's
just that the barefoot is not for every horse and as Wynn
said in his article, the different feed, the confinement of a few acres
plus the fact that Indians and Mountaineers had more
horses to chose from for riding suggest that you should
really check to see that this for your horse.
WC
I will go the opposite way. The lessons that the barefoot guys are showing about proper feed and exercise should be the standard for ALL horses. Getting the frog down close to the ground and never cutting into the live sole should be on ALL horses. Even if you don't go 100% barefoot on your horses, you should learn from what these guys are teaching. A lot of it is only indirectly related to the barefoot stuff. It is instead the research of Universities around the world who are studying horses. I am starting to see things like reduced sugar and carb diets, and constantly available feed?being written about outside barefoot circles. Maybe instead of asking if barefoot is right, you should be encouraging the horse people to start changing the way they throw that high cal suppliment and stall their horses 24 hours a day.
?
Ramey talks
about a "transition period" and boots or maybe green
buffalo hide.
WC
Yes that is a part of the reasoning for the article. I will carry hoofboots on rides and use them if I need to. Same way with bug repellant.?
?
I can't wait to start reading this T&LR
and hats off to a great mag. I've been getting it since
1996 and really enjoy reading them over and over. (Sorry
this was so long) Mike Drougas
