I agree with D. Michael here. He certainly wasn't shouting down discourse, but stating some very legitimate opinions. We have to be careful that in defending discourse, that we don't lose our own voices in the process. If one side is allowed to speak, so is the other, and to try to illegitimize D. Michael's voice, David was inadvertently perpetuating the "shouting down" that he was trying to prevent.
At least that's my humble opinion.
--Mahonri
"D. Michael Martindale" <dmichael@???> wrote: David Pace wrote:
> I beg to differ. The kind of bluntness that you exhibit does violence
> not so much to Martha Beck but to the conversation about how religious
> fundamentalism in the LDS community destroys people's lives because it
> fuses family with faith and faith with authority. I think we must talk
> about it because it's a chronic problem in Mormon culture. Martha
> attempted to enter that conversation, did it badly and for motivations
> that were suspect, in my view. But that doesn't mean that the critical
> eye she cast on Utah Valley Mormonism in the 70s, 80s and 90s isn't an
> important conversation to have. Frankly, the mentality of a mob that
> emerged in the LDS community in reaction to the book before it even
> published suggested that we have something profound to hide.
You're preaching to the choir, Dave, but Martha Beck's spurious
accusations toward her father have nothing to do with this issue. Aside
form the "women-good-men-bad nonsense," this is another social
phenomenon that drives me nuts: taking a legitimate criticism of
something and turning it into a criticism of some social issue that may
or may not have much connection with the original subject. This is the
phenomenon that causes people who legitimately criticize something a
Black or a Jew or a Gay says or does to be condemned as a racist,
anti-Semite, or homophobe.
Martha Beck's accusatons are without support, and that has nothing to do
with whitewashing the problems in Mormon culture. Moi, D. Michael
Martindale, trying to whitewash Mormon culture???? [hysterical laughter]
> The reaction of most LDS,
> including your own, suggests a shouting down of discourse, which in the
> end hurts everyone except those that abuse, those that obfuscate and
> those that dissemble. Are we looking for the truth or are we just
> looking for validation?
This is an insult to me. I never did any such thing. I've held back
comment and judgment for quite some time after this book came out. The
comment I made recently was the first significant one I ever made about
Beck, and it was only after listening to many sides of the issue and
thoughtfully assessing the evidence.
Plus, I defy anyone to give one single example if when I ever shouted
anyone down. I express my opinions in strong, sometimes caustic
language, but I never shout a blessed soul down. I speak my piece, then
sit back and let everyone say what they have to say about it. Then I
respond. I think that's called dialog, not shouting down.
> However valuable her book was (and I believe
> it is valuable), Beck was guilty of the latter--only looking for
> validation, more precisely, perhaps, revenge. Are we as well? Does our
> reaction to her just re-enact her crime?
No, because everyone has given her plenty of leeway to possibly be
right. That was one of the things that was frustrating me and evoked my
comment--I think everyone's giving her too much leeway. I think far more
than enough precincts have now turned in their results to be able to
call this race.
> I think the LDS community deserves her book because it gives us an
> opportunity to address something that profoundly needs to be addressed.
> Dismissing it out of hand doesn't work for me, and I don't think it
> should work for anyone who claims to care about their own people.
I already discussed the offensive accusation of dismissing her--which I
never did. But no, sir, we do NOT need this book. We do NOT need a book
full of lies and distortions to start any legitimate discussion.
Besides, that discussion has already been going on long before Martha
popped on the scene--we don't need to start anything. I know--I've been
part of that discussion for years.
--
D. Michael Martindale
dmichael@???
===========================================================
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===========================================================
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