Thank you for your insights Mike.
Mike: If I had to guess on the number of people who were
in the early west, I would say around 6,000+.
That seems believable to me. I only wondered about things
like Ferris's references to finding the Iriquois. It left
me to wonder if their was a big group of them that never
even make the journals. I kind of doubt that since they
probably switched around and get mentions somewhere.
As to the groups running into each other, the west was
smaller then. I have set on top of mountains and had
friends talk about how mountain men might have been on this
very spot. Well I doubted it because it took us hours on
graded roads to get here and why on earth would they want to
be there. Matt Warner, a early Utah Outlaw talked about how
in the early days the posses would race the outlaws to the
next tight spot. They would look to ambush at the ferry
crossing on the Colorado or the canyon trails. You might
have thousands of acres in Cache Valley but you only had
about four ways in and out.
I knew when I first saw your list that it was going to
create more questions than answers for me but I am
impressed that you have kept at it. It would be a wealth of
information for anyone looking to write an article like the
Hafen series. Since I was writing my article on the Freeman
I naturely hoped you would try to identify race but I have
to admit that I see a big difference between a displaced
eastern Indian and a member of a western tribe so it is not
just race that interests me.
So you are looking at 60 women? Is there any surpirses in
the roles they played? Well for any of the guys out there
that have not read about the black slaves that were
prostituted in the NorthWest that is probably a surprise. I
know one that was interesting to me is that John Greys wife
was an Iriquois French cross with several crosses of French
and Indian in her geneology. Some of those people could
easily start taking after the European physical traits.
Maybe a blue eyed Indian would not be that impossible.
Lastly, with the advent of the interent I have friends all
over the world. I am their wild west friend. I am sure they
see me in dirty leather, guns and horses and wild lands.
Yes the west is still alive, even if the cutoff date is
1840.
That sounds like alot, but divided up over the years and
put into the number of acres out there and that is not that
many. The data base shows about 4200
and I think I can find many more in the upcoming years. No
one had ever taken the time to do any
solid research on this, just thrown out numbers. So, the
data base gives us some figures to think about.
I am always surprised at the number of Natives/Mixed
race individuals who show up. Last
year I did some thinking on how many people were at the 16
rendezvous and did a article on it.
There was about 12,000 people at these and the Natives (of
all tribes and races) outnumbered the
whites about 3 to 1. I have not yet taken the numbers from
the data base to figure out the percentages. One hard aspect
on doing that is that many were given white names and you
have to
know who you are talking about when trying to count them.
My sixth book will be on the different
tribes that had contact with the early whites and when that
is done, I could give you a better
count. Right now, I have 80 + tribes/bands/sub tribes and
accumulating a llong ist of important men
in them.
I did find a few things that amazed me.
1) We always think of the west as sparse and lonely. These
people ran into each other! Which is how a person shows up
in 10 or more journals. Now if someone was written about in
lets say, 10 diaries, that would put in about 10% of all
that we know of. Quite a feat. Evidently, the western
traveler had enough common trails, meeting places, starting
and ending spots, watering holes... that they could not help
running into others. Plus if on wagon trails, the had people
going the opposite way.
2) That many people were known by different names. Some
were known by their first or last name only in a book. You
had variations of their names and alot of times the name
recorded in the journal was spelled phonicly or as close as
the writer could do. Which really messes with your brain
when you try to place a person and see if they are found in
any other book under a different name. Which I tried to do,
and you can see the times I made the connection when I wrote
to "see also......" and gave a different name.
3) that were alot more women in the west than I thought. I
had figured that were maybe 20 or less, and I have not
counted the ones on the updated list, but there maybe 2 to 3
times that amount, not including all the Spanish and Native
women.
Wynn, it has been interesting to figure out when did
the early west start and finish? Don't worry about the
rendezvous dates, since there were many, many here before
and after it, some who never did show up at one of those.
The question came up a big writer's convention in Scottsdale
recently. One of the panel guests said that the west is not
a place or peroid of time, that it changed and was fluid. I
think that he was right. We usually associate the west along
a white prespective, that went west gradually and opened up
to include all of what we consider the United States today.
I have this year went to San Diego (and stood where James
Pattie's dad died at while a prisoner), El Paso (where Susan
Magoffin's brother in law's family started the town),
Seattle (and looked off the beaches to see where the early
ships went along the coast), had family who went to Hawaii
(where a triangle trade was done for years with the upper
west coast and California) and some little Spanish Missions
(where Zebulon Pike stayed at when he was a prisoner on his
way to Mexico). The west we read about is the west the
writer whose journal or diary you have in your hand
experienced. It was different for different people. And at
different times. Is Kurz's early 1850's journal really any
different than David Thompson's in the 1810's? Or George
Sibley's and Joel Palmer's? All of these are not the same in
details, but in our American west. I chose to use books who
authors experienced the west when it was wild, untamed,
largely unknown and before it was settled. So, finding that
a young woman writes about seeing the Sandwich Islands,
while her husband was a ships captain in the 1840's puts
her, in my mind in the same league as Private Solomon
Huddleson who was with Pike or Cherokee Ross or Baptiste
Sabourin.
This third update was fun and a very tiring thing
to do. It will be another two to three years before I will
update it again. I forgot to say that from a writer's mind
(and what the author who made the comments I told earlier in
this finished his talk with) in some ways the west has not
stopped to be. When Luke Skywalker gets into a fight in a
space bar and shots ring out and all the bad guys just turn
their heads to see if they need to get involved - that to
him is still the west. I don't know if that would ever work
for us of the fur trade and real early west, but it is
something to think about.
mike.
p.s. I have a article in the upcoming True West magazine,
on the Butterfield Trail, another different kind of west.
--
Look for my fourth book to be out soon. A View to the West
is my latest and best so far.
Have you seen my latest article in On The Trail magazine?
Celebrating my eleventh year as a staff writer,
OTTmagazine.com.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Wynn"
Mike
We have talked before about making some assumptions from
your list. I wonder if you have any changes to your
thoughts.
Specifically:
How many men would you estimate were involved in the fur
trade over the entire time? Any speculation at one given
time?
What percent would you estimate of Eastern
Indian/halfbreed compared to the total number of
participants?
Is there any surprizes that you have discovered in doing
this research?
Wynn
----- Original Message -----
From: amm1616@???
To: hist list
Subject: MtMan-List: update on list
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:16:14 +0000
> Friends,
> Just to let you know that Dean has posted my updated
> list of Names of People in the West. Version three now
has
> about 4200 names and over 11,000 entries! If you are
> looking for information on individuals in the fur trade
> journals and diaries, or doing some family genology,
here
> is the address:
>
>
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/names/names.html
>
> mike.
> --
> Look for my fourth book to be out soon. A View to the
West
> is my latest and best so far.
>
> Have you seen my latest article in On The Trail magazine?
> Celebrating my eleventh year as a staff writer,
> OTTmagazine.com.
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Sean Kyle
>
> > Zenas Leonard, John Kirk Townsend, and Warren Ferris
all
> > use the term 'shot pouch', Clyman uses ' ball pouch' ,
> > Russell and Sage use 'bullet pouch'. Jed Smith called
> it a 'shot bag'. I can't recall seeing it called a
> > 'shooting bag' in period literature, but I think
they'd
> > all know what we meant even if they thought we talked
> > funny , wore odd clothes, and were in somewhat sorry
> > shape for the mountains.
> > Sean
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Ronald Schrotter wrote:
> > From: Ronald Schrotter
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Bags
> > To: "hist list"
> > Date: Saturday , July 19, 2008, 6:59 AM
> >
> > The shooting bag is just what the name implies-it
holds
> > whatever you feel is needed to shoot whatever gun
> > you're carrying, although some like to carry flint and
> > steel as well, just in case. A "shot pouch" is a
long
> bag with a tapered neck for carrying shot for a< BR>> >
smoothbore, either tradegun or shotgun. Some folks have
> > their powderhorn attatched to the shoulder strap,
> others carry it seperate. This is a matter of
preference.
> > Some are pretty fancy with bead or quillwork on the
> > straps or flap, others are plain as a mud fence. If
you
> want you can carry all manner of junk, but stick with
just
> > shooting gear, and you'll be fine.
> > Dog
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hist_text mailing list
> > Hist_text@???
> >
>
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hist_text
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hist_text mailing list
> > Hist_text@???
> >
> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/hist_text
> _______________________________________________
> Hist_text mailing list
> Hist_text@???
>
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hist_text
